Maybe we need a Survival-less Survival thread.

Anyway, @Boogdish and I have been on a similar wavelength, apparently.

I 5-0ed earlier this week with this deck and 4-1'ed over a dozen times with similar builds over the last three weeks.

I've found the Stonecoils/Ballistas to be better than Memnite here, since they not only can be cast for at least twice the power for the same cost with Bridge in the graveyard, but are easier to scale into formidable threats on their own. I've been shooting down Deathrite Shamans with Ballista and closing out games quickly with Stonecoils when the graveyard plan fails (pro multicolor is huge vs Bug/Dack).

Maindeck Leyline has been very powerful in this metagame. Many decks, even the Xerox variants, rely heavily on the graveyard (e.g., Wrenn, Arcanist). Further, making it harder to remove the Bridges gives you resiliency against removal. I only side them out versus Outcome.

The sideboard still needs some work, but I'm sold on the Leyline of Sanctities. They not only deal with Trap/Crypt, but also Hurkyl's Recall, which lets you pivot harder into a prison deck against Outcomes/Combo. With the Bazaar/Squee engine, you can keep piling on the lockpieces against them.

The Wastelands and Ghost Quarters are primarily there for Shops/Dredge. They're also useful against Xerox variants, since they they help to cast threats when you need to dodge graveyard hate and also keep pressure on their manabase while you're chipping away.

Usually, I have one to two Crucibles in the board for the Shops matchups over some number of Quarters/Revokers, which I think is correct.

I've only just started playing again after a couple of months off, but Null Rod has been working well for me against the Karn decks, since both the Shops and Eldrazi lists rely so heavily on the artifact accelerants.

Wastelands have been a great complement to Null Rod, too, especially against Eldrazi, since their threats are at a high, fixed cost, but Shops can simply choose to play their threats for less mana.

What a sweet card. Maybe it's time for Mishra's Workshop and Dark Ritual to bury the hatchet and join forces.

At least, that's what I'll be trying. Failure or not, I can't wait.

@vaughnbros

I've tried to make Bridge work in these lists, and have found that like you suggest, it pushes the build too far in to Dredge territory at the expense of the other gameplans.

Regarding Ichorids: out of the several dozen lists I've tried, those with Ichorids have fared best for me. The list I 5-0ed with didn't have the Ichorids (looks like the list above), but on the whole the versions with some number of Ichorids have done best. I kept finding that the Dredge plan Game 1 is a little too anemic with just the Bloodhasts/Amalgams, so I've been trying to give it just a little more strength.

I have also wanted to explore Ballista in these shells, but have hesitated to explore that in the current list because of the dis-synergy with Null Rod. I think there is potential, though, perhaps in a very different list or for matches where Null Rods don't excel.

Also, after a month break from leagues, I took out the below list last night and ran back-to-back 4-1's:

Only losses were to Uba Stax (how fitting in this thread) and Outcome, both in Game 3.

Life From the Loam was fantastic all night. It was responsible for several match wins and felt much better than Crucibles when I've tried them. As both a tutor and recursion engine for the Depths plan, I am optimistic about its role in the deck.

Cursed Totem is a nod to Shops primarily. Shops, for me, has been the worst match-up for these lists. Null Rod is the best card in this match up, and buys a lot of time with Hollow One as a wall. Cursed Totem gets pretty close to Null Rod number 5 in that match-up.

Last night brings my last 7 leagues to 26-9 (somehow managing not to 5-0 in that span).

This opens up so much design space for Stax.

I've been trying to make Stax work for the last couple of years, and I've been torn between lists that do and don't play Null Rod.

Every time I play Stax lists with Null Rod, I feel like I'm weighed down. The card is burdensome in so many ways--there is serious dis-synergy with cards like Smokestack and Tangle Wire (these cards need to be doing something other than tapping down or sacrificing dead moxen), it increases the rate of dead draws (bad in multiples, and dead moxen, but ours this time, and Stax lists already suffer from rough top-decks), makes it harder to ramp to higher CMC spells (dead moxen again, reluctance to play Lotus and Crypt etc.), and it freezes rather than eliminates the opponent's artifact ramp (a single Ancient Grudge topples the house of cards).

For these reasons, I've much preferred playing without Null Rod in favor of maximizing synergies, like using Bomb/Keg to clear the board to magnify the effects of Smokestack/Tangle Wire. Of course, this comes at a cost-- Null Rod does so much for so little, and playing it dramatically increases the odds of making an impactful turn-1 play (all the more important after losing Thorn).

But this card is close to the best of both worlds. You get to play your ramp, since it doesn't do anything to yours. You get to play cards with activated abilities like Keg/Bomb. And you can even use an Expedition-Map toolbox . Hell, you can even go all out with a Serum-Powder build and retrieve exiled artifacts with the -2. And it's a win-con.

This is a good day for Stax.

Congrats on the 5-0!

Echoing @ajfirecracker, I've found 1-3 Ichorids to be very strong in the maindeck. The biggest value in my mind is having another way to trigger Prized Amalgam. Adding just one Ichorid increases the probability of having a way to trigger Amalgam by 25%.

The down-side of Ichorid is that it is relatively inflexible across the match--it's much better Game 1 than in Games 2-3. I think in general that cards supporting only half of the plan in a hybrid deck need an especially-high cost to benefit ratio for consideration. I think that the first Ichorid meets that criteria comfortably, but I'm not 100% sold on additional copies, as the returns diminish quickly (at least regarding Amalgam triggers; +20%, +17%, and +14% for adding each Ichorid beyond the first).

I haven't had time to play in any leagues in weeks, but I did play in five leagues with 2-3 Ichorids and 1-2 Golgari Thug and went 18-7. A small sample size, but the Ichorids felt smooth.

Like you, I also have developed mixed feelings about Leyline of Sanctity. It's so good at ensuring lockpieces stick around against Outcome, does great things against Oath, and deals with targeted hate like Ravenous Trap and Tomord's crypt. Consequently, it synergizes with both halves of the deck, but it also doesn't help win the game and does so little on its own.

As I side-note-- I have adored your Stax lists since I started playing Vintage in the early 2000s. It's cool to see you back!

@moorebrother1

They do, but those cards are more difficult to return and replay with Outcome. You can return this, replay it at 1 mana, Outcome it again, etc.

Got the 5-0 with the above list featuring Life From the Loam.

I've played Loam in six leagues, going 23-7 across two different lists. Four of those leagues were with the verbatim list posted above (17-3) and two were with a modified version that cut the Salvages/Ichorid for more Portals/Loams/Leyline of Sanctity (6-4).

Obviously a small sample size, but I think Dakmor Salvage may too important to cut. In the two leagues and a bunch of practice matches without it, I've had trouble reliably triggering the Bloodghasts or ensuring a land drop to get Loam going. Dredging a Salvage often accomplishes both in a single turn.

I can't overemphasize how good Life from the Loam has been. What's really impressed me is how good it's been against Shops and Eldrazi, which were the two match-ups that have given me the most trouble. Loam doesn't just help keep Marit Lage looming, but also undermines the ability of Shops and Eldrazi to overwhelm the board with threats by recurring Wasteland. Null Rod and Wasteland consequently buys a lot of time. The Spheres, which I keep in against Eldrazi, have also become more effective at keeping Thought-Knots and Smashers off the table with a stream of Wastelands flowing.

@vroman
Thanks for the run-down on your sideboarding, I find your approach very interesting. I've always kept in the Shops and lockpieces against the Oath/Survival/U-Wasteland decks to hamper the ability to find and play answers to Marit Lage or the dredge plan and prevent their threats (e.g., keep Oath off the table or Survival from going off in a single turn through a Sphere).

But it looks like you are going for a more all-in attack strategy by keeping the threats and tossing the prison element. I'm going to try that. I think that might be the better approach (especially on the draw).

Also, what are your thoughts on Spyglass vs Needle? Are you going for the latter because you tend to board out Shops?

I'll start my post be saying that my opinion on the London Mulligan is not firm. It's a complex topic and relevant data are limited. Three weeks really isn't enough to gather sufficient data to make statistical comparisons (at least with the limited data that our benevolent overlords permit us to see). So we're left with weaker forms of evidence (trends, intuition, etc.)

In any case, my initial reaction to the new rule is net negative.

There are certainly positive aspects of the new rule. As others have articulated here, the new rule may increase the breadth and complexity of decisions in the early game and in deck building. In theory, this should reward skill/experience and make the decision process itself more mentally stimulating and enjoyable.

However, several factors make me especially concerned about adopting the new rule.

First, I don't think we have (or will have) the data necessary to have an idea of how the new rule will affect the metagame and play experience. I recognize that taking risks can be an important part of improving the format/game, but I feel like the magnitude of this proposed change needs a commensurate amount of data to inform it, which I don't think we'll get.

Second, I worry that the new rule incentives strategies that are broken, fast, proactive, and all-in. This could make Vintage more like its caricature, the "turn-1 format." It may also make the luck of the die roll more important.

Again, hard to know for sure. The format doesn't appear to have undergone a cataclysmic shift in this direction. But I really wouldn't expect it to happen that fast, either. There's bound to be inertia in the decisions people make--people like what they play, have emotional attachments to certain cards/decks, and don't necessarily have the time/motivation to find out how to capitalize on the new changes.

Of course, such an issue could be mitigated through restrictions. But we all know how long addressing format issues through restrictions can take. I'm worried about Vintage undergoing such a large upheaval and how long it will take things to settle.

Finally, I worry that the new rule could complicate our long history of knowledge and theories regarding deck building and in-play decisions. Honestly, I have not thought this one through as deeply, but I don't think I've seen that discussed elsewhere (but I haven't read much on the new rule, either, so I could absolutely be wrong here).

Again, my post is intentionally full of "coulds," "mays," and "appears." I really feel like I don't have a firm grasp on this. Looking forward to reading more discourse on the subject.

Snagged a 5-0 yesterday with this list:

The older style lists were performing well until Modern Horizons hit and dredge became ubiquitous. The first problem was that Force of Vigor severely weakened the previous plan of attack against Dredge. Leyline simply didn't buy enough time on its own to get Marit Lage on the table. The second problem was that graveyard hate became so rampant. This didn't only harm the dredge portion of the deck, but also the Marit Lage plan that leaned so heavily on Riftstone Portal and Life from the Loam.

To address these problems, I moved the Leylines into the maindeck and went with a full suite of Wastes/Strip. Even with Force of Vigor present, those Wastelands can buy a ton of time against Dredge. And of course, they don't always have Force of Vigor, so having Leylines in all three games helps. The maindeck Leylines are also great against Dreadhorde Xerox and Wrenn-and-Six decks.

I also doubled-down on the Marit Lage plan, since it can completely evade graveyard hate and cards like Swords/Repeal are fairly absent from the meta. Going back to the classic Vampire Hexmage and Urborg plan has been doing very well in post-board games.

Edit: followed right up with a 4-1 today

Maybe we need a Survival-less Survival thread.

Anyway, @Boogdish and I have been on a similar wavelength, apparently.

I 5-0ed earlier this week with this deck and 4-1'ed over a dozen times with similar builds over the last three weeks.

I've found the Stonecoils/Ballistas to be better than Memnite here, since they not only can be cast for at least twice the power for the same cost with Bridge in the graveyard, but are easier to scale into formidable threats on their own. I've been shooting down Deathrite Shamans with Ballista and closing out games quickly with Stonecoils when the graveyard plan fails (pro multicolor is huge vs Bug/Dack).

Maindeck Leyline has been very powerful in this metagame. Many decks, even the Xerox variants, rely heavily on the graveyard (e.g., Wrenn, Arcanist). Further, making it harder to remove the Bridges gives you resiliency against removal. I only side them out versus Outcome.

The sideboard still needs some work, but I'm sold on the Leyline of Sanctities. They not only deal with Trap/Crypt, but also Hurkyl's Recall, which lets you pivot harder into a prison deck against Outcomes/Combo. With the Bazaar/Squee engine, you can keep piling on the lockpieces against them.

The Wastelands and Ghost Quarters are primarily there for Shops/Dredge. They're also useful against Xerox variants, since they they help to cast threats when you need to dodge graveyard hate and also keep pressure on their manabase while you're chipping away.

Usually, I have one to two Crucibles in the board for the Shops matchups over some number of Quarters/Revokers, which I think is correct.

@meadbert

My hunch is that one Mystic Sanctuary is correct here.

Generally, more the artifact mana you run, the less likely that >1 Mystic Sanctuary is where you want to be, since it's harder to get the trigger

@meadbert said in Accumulated Knowledge + Force of Negation viable right now?:

Mystic

Very cool deck. I recommend trying out two cards.

[[Baral, Chief of Compliance]] not only makes your Accumulated Knowledges and Intuitions cheaper, but also turns your loaded counter suite into a filter engine.

[[Mystic Sanctuary]] seems ridiculous here. Casting those Accumulated Knowledge repeatedly seems quite good.

The two can occasionally pair together. Fetch Mystic Sanctuary to put something on top, counter their spell, draw it.

@meadbert

Minor correction: Archon is not triggered. It's like Sorcerous Spyglass. Once it's in, you name the card type and they can't respond.

@meadbert

I tried Sevinne's Reclamation in a few of the lists, both with and without the Oath sideboard, and liked it quite a bit.

To make Reclamation reliable with the Oath board, I adopted @brianpk80's tech of using Oath creatures that prevent the opponent from casting spells on your turn.

The three creatures I tried were Dragonlord Dromoka, Archon of Valor's Reach (naming instant), and Sanctum Prelate (e.g., name 4 for Ravenous Trap, 5 for FOW etc.).

Of these creatures, Archon of Valor's Reach was the most powerful when it hit the board, as it effectively ends the game against most decks on the spot. The Prelate had a smaller impact, but was easier to cast and is simply more reliable. Dromoka was hit-or-miss. The lifelink and uncounterability were nice, but she often didn't stick around long enough to execute the Loam plan.

Oathing into Prelate may seem counterintuitive, but it can actually be quite effective in allowing you to play Loam without worrying about disruption. You can play multiple Prelates, too, meaning that you can shut the opponent down from multiple angles (against Xerox, naming 1, 4, and 5 in order locks them out of the most relevant counterplay). You needn't fear Cage, either, as your castable threat goes right to the top of your library (a sort of build-your-own Worldly Tutor, which is also tech from our dear Mr. Dragonlord).

I liked Oathing into castable creatures, like Prelate, Ouphe, and threats, like Ramnunap Excavator. The point of these creatures isn't to win the game on their own like Griselbrand, but to enable your original gameplan or slow down your opponent.

@moorebrother1

They do, but those cards are more difficult to return and replay with Outcome. You can return this, replay it at 1 mana, Outcome it again, etc.

@garbageaggro

I think this and Endless one are different enough that the comparison isn't too diagnostic of this card's playability. They serve different needs.

That said, I'm with you in that I wouldn't make a bold prediction about this card being widely played, format defining, etc. This is a hostile metagame for artifacts that enter the battlefield with no immediate benefit.

However, I do think it offers some unique benefits to Shops decks and merits exploration on those grounds.

For example, prison style lists are often too slow to close the game quickly enough due to the restrictions of Thorn, Lodestone, and Chalice. In those decks, increasing the offensive potency comes at the big cost of sacrificing the lockpieces (i.e., to close out the game, you need more creatures and end up cutting Wires/Rods etc.). This incentivizes going for a few big creatures creatures that can shoulder the offensive burden alone. But with Spheres and Rods, casting that Steel Hellkite is tough. This card can be both big enough to close out a game and can be cast for much less if needed (reminds me of Trike versus Ballista). Granted, I don't think this style of list is playable right now, but I will always try.

I'll be testing it in some older style Shops lists. Like most things I test with Shops, it probably won't work out.

This seems incredibly good to me if it can find a home.

Shops pilots have wanted threats that are immune to Dack for a long time.

Certainly, Arcbound Ravager and Ballista provide some degree of immunity to Dack, but this accomplishes the feat without an enabler. The trample means that Dack is under direct assault.

This could also fit in other types of Shops decks, too. A traditional Stax deck would love this. I suppose anything that plays Traxos should consider this.

@poxeveryturn

Wow, what a spectacular post. Thank you for sharing all of your insight here.

1. Null Rods in the main deck

I agree with you about Null Rod. I went to the full four in the maindeck recently and shoved some of the Spheres to the sideboard. I like having at least a couple of Spheres in the maindeck in the Workshop style list.

I like that a Sphere and a Null Rod can partner up to do a decent Defense Grid impression under the right circumstances, which is critical with all of those Force of Vigors lurking about.

2. Reactive Countermagic and Permanents

I've also been unimpressed with Pyroblast, Mindbreak Trap, and Leyline of Sanctity. Both are too situational and get in the way of developing the board.

However, I think that [[Veil of Summer]] has promise, as it's more flexible and replaces itself. I tried it in a few leagues last night and I was impressed. The card was responsible for winning several games/matches against PO and one against storm. I don't think anything else would have worked in its place.

[[Veil of Summer]] counters the following (and draws a card in the process):

a. bounce effects: Hurkyl's Recall, Chain of Vapor

b. discard: Thoughtseize, Unmask, Cabal Therapy

c. removal: Assassin's Trophy, Abrupt Decay

d. graveyard hate: Ravenous Trap

e. blue counterspells: even Flusterstorm!

f. permanent-based exile/bounce: Ashen Rider's enter-the-battlefield triggers, JTMS, Teferi(Edit: nope, can't instant speed)

All that said, it wouldn't surprise me if Thoughtseize is still the better card to play. It does much of the same job and has more flexibility.

3. Oath of Druids

I have mixed feelings about Oath.

The card is there as much for "tutoring" Loam as it is for summoning the big fellas. The idea is that Oath forces them to have two kinds of answers. If they have Priest/Cage, you get to use Loam if they have no graveyard hate. That has come up several times. If they have graveyard hate but nothing for Oath, well, you get the idea. The best target, by far, has been [[Muldrotha, the Gravetide]]. You get to play Crucible and Fastbond from the yard and go off.

Another thing I like about Oath is that it can be used to increase the range of acceptable hands. For example, if I am against combo or storm, I want a lockpiece like Null Rod. However, a hand with Null Rod and no reliable path to victory won't get there. Increasing the number of plausible paths to victory likewise increases the probability of keeping a decent hand with Null Rod.

Oath does have problems, though:

a. It's best in the creature-based matchups (Shops, Dredge, and Survival). Obviously, this is not a huge selling point, and necessarily takes away from cards that are better against our "problem children."

b. Hard to cast the big creatures, giving blank draws

c. Makes their Force of Vigors even better

d. Waters down the traditional lands package (you have to cut somewhere, and it's generally not the disruption)

Some of these issues can be mitigated by the choice of Oath package. Using castable creatures is a big one. I've Oathed into Ramunap Excavator. Courser of Kruphix seems plenty reasonable, too.

I've also Oathed into Collector Ouphe and...it wasn't bad given that the Ouphe comes in only in the matchups where it's very impactful.

I've also tried cards like Draglonlord Dromoka to shut off Ravenous Trap etc to get at least one Loam activation.

There's a lot to try with Oath.

---

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Anyway, you've also mentioned a bunch of other possibilities. I'll be mulling these over and testing them.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. Good luck with the brewing!

@poxeveryturn

Congrats on the win. The list looks great, and I look forward to trying it out myself. Have you played/tested much versus combo and Outcome? Those are the two matchups I struggle with the most.

@Serracollector

I've been extremely impressed by Glacial Chasm playing the role of infinite-combo enabler.

That's why there are two copies in the 5-0 list that @Mike-Noble linked to (I based that deck off of his list).

Other desirable features of Chasm are that it is uncounterable when played from the hand, can be tutored via Crop Rotation or Loam, can be played from the graveyard, gets Riftstone Portal into the graveyard, and can buy a few turns under heavy pressure.

Edit: I should also add that you can copy Chasm with Thespian's Stage to buy even more time if you need to. That's come up a few times.