Sardonic responses don't always come across terribly well in text.

My response was a bit tongue-in-cheek while winking at the elephant in the room.

I thoroughly enjoy the VSL. Most of the games are enjoyable and most of the commentary is enjoyable (like most, I certainly have my preferences).

At the same time, to paraphrase from Steve's fantastic article on The Deck- players lobbying for the restriction/banning of certain cards is as old as the DCI. I even remember Randy joking about "are we trying to get ____ card restricted this season" in acknowledgement of that perception. He was likely mocking the notion that the VSL had that sort of influence, which came into focus following his rather vocal dislike of Chalice of the Void (especially during the Eternal Weekend coverage) and its subsequent restriction.

I'm of two minds on it.

One one hand, the DCI also restricted Dig Through Time at the same time as the Chalice restriction, and there was absolutely no chatter on in on the VSL, and one can be certain that the DCI does not solely consider the opinions of pro-players when it comes to the restrictions in Vintage. Thus winking at the elephant.

On the other hand, I think that the VSL does serve as a very wide-reaching platform for the format and as such it can impact perceptions of cards and the health of the format.

I also, as stated in other threads littered through the site, fall in the "as few restrictions as possible" and the "let the metagame adjust" camp. The lodestone restriction was not as welcome with me for those reasons (I think more time between the Chalice and Lodestone restrictions should have passed.)

Thus, I balance my enthusiasm for the VSL with the vague thought that I hope they realize that their voice carries weight.

Is this the thread for the betting pool of what card the league campaigns for restriction this season?

@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:

@mourningpalace Shops' mwp has continued to increase. I remember when it sat around the 55% mark and players were like "omg, over 50% mwp, imba".

One of the constant things to ask when citing the data collected for vintage is what conclusions can (or should) be drawn from said data.

It's the only deck that gets a 4 reusable black lotuses that don't even need to be cast.

This statement needs to die in a fire. If you could use workshop mana to activate artifacts, then you'd be a lot closer to having a metaphor The restriction on casting artifacts is very much a thing.

People turn a blind eye and as shit hits the fan over and over the player's get blamed for their reactions?

Look at it from the other direction- in this small segment of conversation, you say that a deck is overpowered, cite its namesake card as being problematic, and then represent how that card functions in a hyperbolic way...

Is it any wonder that players that enjoy playing in that archetype might get grumpy when they are told "your deck is overpowered" when half the time the audience calling for restrictions A) doesn't play vintage, B) Really means "I don't like the way your style of deck plays and would enjoy vintage more with it gone,

I think the biggest reason that Shops pilots are getting cranky is that after a big event that featured two incredibly fine workshop pilots playing a great tournament we aren't debating the technology in their lists. We aren't talking about Rich's decision to go all in on Ravager in round three.

Instead, we are debating (again) if Workshop is too overpowered and if something needs restriction from the deck. And that is tiresome. Because as opposed to celebrating the first win of Shops at EW in over 10 years, defending the right of the deck to exist is tiring. Because the back-handed "congrats at EW with your overpowered deck" to those who had a great weekend at EW is insulting to the playing skill and good sportsmanship of those who did well.

The fact that we have seen this dance over and over again only further disheartens and frustrates people.

Dredge does well? Dredge isn't real magic. Dredge is a brainless deck that requires no skill to play. Bazaar of Baghdad needs to be restricted.

Shops does well? Prison decks are no fun to play against. Workshop decks are monkey simple and take away from an enjoyable vintage experience. Workshop needs to be restricted because it is a reuseable black lotus that you can run four of.

Oath does well? Oath is completely unfair. Given the ridiculous powercreep that Wizards keeps putting into creatures it is only a matter of time before it needs restriction. And the start of "orchard, mox, oath" is among the most sigh-inducing in magic and requires no skill to play a deck like that.

...and stuff.

@bobbyvictory Hyperbole doesn't help your crusade.

Just firing it up, and Steve's "Hi Everyone" is the best Eyeore impersonation I've ever heard.

Edit:

Deeper in, I really like reframing of the issue at 24:51.

@ChubbyRain said:

Let me be clear that I am NOT trying to antagonize Steve further. My conduct in the past was inappropriate and I would like to apologize to (@Smmenen ) and the broader TMD community.

In a day and age when politeness has fallen off the face of the internet, an apology is a rare thing. Cheers to you.

Dislike the disquieting feeling that runs "if workshop decks adapt to this and still take up too much of the metagame restricting workshop in the next step."

I won't claim to speak for anyone, but I'd rather see how the metagame responds than immediately moving to "time to restrict something" every time we have a large tournament.

It does not matter if it is an artifact, part of the Workshop picture, a blue draw spell, or whatever.

I'd go so far to argue that we've not had a truly degenerate metagame since Control Slaver was king. I'd argue that vintage could be fun in that metagame.

I'll accept that the format may be better off with certain cards restricted since then. I don't think frequent restrictions make the format better.

I absolutely think that frequent restrictions cater to the mtgo contingent of Vintage, Whether that is good or bad is a wash, but it understandable makes those moving paper cards around a little gun shy due to the investment of time and resources to constantly adjust/adapt to a b/r announcement every three months.

The finals ended up Paradoxical Storm vs. Rav shops.

Round one: Paradoxical Storm wins the die roll. Gets to storm count 22 ish before resolving paradoxical outcome, opponent sees DT in hand and a ton of artifact mana and agrees to scoop it up.

Round two: Shops deploys thorn and tks n quick succession.

Round three: Storm mulls to five, opens with Ancestral, looks like anyone's game. Turn one for shops sees workshop, sol ring, mox, mox and attempted thorn which meets FoW. A follow up revoker lands and names lotus. The next turn storm digs a bit, and the following turn the shops deck lands tks and arcbound ravager. The beats follow the next turn, which also sees trike join the fun and the match is over shortly thereafter.

Imperial Seal tops my "I kknow we won't get it but I can dream" list.

Demars always hates dredge. To him it shouldn't be a viable archetype. Take any of his vintage musings with a huge grain of salt.

This thread is what makes this format great.

As the one that requests the Twilight Guardians version of La Isla Bonita in Matt's stream, I can't help but grin at reading this.

Good analysis. Your draw seven deck has been one of my big "I wonder what the london mulligan rule will look like" questions as opposed to the kneejerk "we need to restrict workshop and bazaar"silliness. Narset and Karn are also big questions.

I think its going to take awhile for the format to balance itself out after MH.

And the london mulligan is officially coming. We live in interesting times.

This spring is one of the most interesting times in Magic's long hstory.

We have War of the Spark, with so many planeswalker (including a slightly different design approach) cards that ask a lot of questions.

We have the London mulligan rule, which if adopted will alter the way the game is played and shift how we evaluate certain cards.

We have the upcoming Modern Horizons set, which has the potiential to print new cards that carry effects that will easily find a home in Vintage.

It is a fascinating time to be a magic player.
0

Thanks @evouga !

That helps put some of this in perspective..

Finished the episode. This was good civilization.

Really, my only hope is that if the mulligan is adopted that they let the format practice, play, and adjust for a bit before using the b/r list to tweak.

Half way into this episode.

Incredibly well reasoned thus far. This is one of the best episodes in my opinion.

As a necromancer, this mulligan proposal has me a little worried. But it is also possible that dredge dies not gain so much that it becomes problematic.

While dredge is the poster child for "what does this do to opening hands" I think the ability to mulligan aggressively for silver bullets is likewise a little brain melty.

Leylines, major hate pieces, power, force of will...the game would change radically if you could actively go fishing for them and potentially still come away with a keepable hand.