@nba84 People love nostalgia, inside jokes and references. Time Spiral was full of them and a big hit as I recall.

1. Going back to the original posting. If I ever play Paper Vintage again, it will have to allow unlimited Proxies. That was already a big contention point 10 years ago, but for me, more proxies = more players that can afford to play competitvely, and thus a healthier scene. We did no proxy tournaments, and it gets old real fast always playing against the same 10 people with power and a few people with no power who never come back after being annihilated.

2. Now skip to the present, and think about the price of cards. Back in the days, theft was rare, but not unheard off. In that time, a thief stealing a juicy backpack could get 5-10k of stuff if they were lucky. Now a fully powered deck can easily reach 50k, not counting the trade binder. I would be completely paranoid about carrying that with me when it can so easily be stolen, and you lose 2 years of income in the blink of a eye with little to no recourse.

@brass-man Oh boy, that takes me back. From memory the Drain Shop deck used Chalice for 1-2 to hose, Crucible for card advantage and Nev disk to sweep if things went bad, as well as the big blue cards. It was pure control and killed with Platinum Angel or another big robot.

I only saw one person pilot it and he always asked his decklist not be disclosed.

I created Bomberman and yes, it didn't take off in the US before I went to a few SCG P9 event with it. I didn't know Dragon was Canadian thought.

To be fair, Bargain would still do the trick. You can pay 1 life to draw a card you can't play on top and keep playing whatever else you find on top.

@fsecco said in Single Card Discussion - Lavinia, Azorious Renegade:

Sounds like we can't have taxing decks in Vintage anymore. It's all "let me do my thing and let's see who does it faster".

Yeah, it's exactly my impression of what Vintage has been for a long time. When a new blue card gets printed, everyone is super happy to have a new toy, but when a new hate card gets printed, people throw a tantrum because they can't use their toys like they want. Seems the only type of interaction people are willing to accept is counterspells because it's somehow "fairer" to gets things countered instead of not being able to play them.

"Come on, are we really complaining about a non-existent problem?"

Seems like it, I can't remember a single hate-bear deck putting decent and steady results in tournaments. Seems like people are afraid to lose games against random rogues decks.

I'm really enjoying this set so far which is full of "What would a Vintage staple look like if we didn't mess up the design the first time."

This is the best example. Costing 2 and having an activated ability of 1 is strong, but reasonable. And Welder, nor the color pie or abilities in general, are meant to just permit exchanges in the opponent's graveyard.

That said, I would have never thought of adding a built-in Entomb, and I think it's great flavor!

Meh, to me Voltaic key is barely an iconic card, it saw little play before Time Vault got errated, and the art is very very forgettable, it's just very brown and unoriginal to me.

You still need to cast whatever you draw in your opponent's turn most likely, so that would put a heavy restraint on deck building so you don't just exile all your permanents during your opponent's turn.

Did no one bother to go look at the WotC mechanic explanations? It's literally where this card was spoiled.

Most of the rules that govern how transforming double-faced cards apply to the new modal variety. While a modal double-faced card is in your hand, your graveyard, or exile, it has the characteristics of its front face only. So, if you're searching your library for a land card, you can't find a modal double-faced card whose front face isn't a land card. If an effect allows you to cast instant spells from your graveyard, you could cast Valakut Awakening, but you couldn't play Valakut Stoneforge.

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/zendikar-rising-mechanics-2020-09-01

Oh, I'd run this in an aggressive Death's Shadow deck with phyrexian mana. Surgical and Probe would be great with this. Add bolts and key blue cards and seems you'd have a fast clock.

@moorebrother1 Massive MASSIVE difference between a 1k Modern deck and a 50k Vintage deck.

And of course it's up to everyone to choose, I'm saying the risk to reward for me is nowhere close enough. I wouldn't be able to enjoy myself while always having to be extra careful about where everything is at all times.

1. Going back to the original posting. If I ever play Paper Vintage again, it will have to allow unlimited Proxies. That was already a big contention point 10 years ago, but for me, more proxies = more players that can afford to play competitvely, and thus a healthier scene. We did no proxy tournaments, and it gets old real fast always playing against the same 10 people with power and a few people with no power who never come back after being annihilated.

2. Now skip to the present, and think about the price of cards. Back in the days, theft was rare, but not unheard off. In that time, a thief stealing a juicy backpack could get 5-10k of stuff if they were lucky. Now a fully powered deck can easily reach 50k, not counting the trade binder. I would be completely paranoid about carrying that with me when it can so easily be stolen, and you lose 2 years of income in the blink of a eye with little to no recourse.

Seems just inferior to Heartless Act or Power Word Kill. I think the 2 life will matter far more often than not being able to kill a Demon, Angel or other rare creature type.

I'm pretty sure some sites include the average mana cost of cards in each decklist. It would be a good starting point to see on average how many cards this will hit for each deck.

All the above aside, there is no way this would be a 2/2 for 6 mana when all the other incarnations have at least ok stats.

It's also missing a color appropriate keyword.

And again, the name, come on, an incarnation that does that would be called Denial.

It's not only a fake, it's a very bad fake.

@botvinik Also, without any black or red cards in the yard, it might take a few turns to get to Treshold.

@serracollector Problem is that the more creatures you play, the less spells you have and the harder it is to actually get this into play (and it's already not easy). A 8/8 that basically can't be killed should be enough by itself, making an extra 8/8 sounds like win-more.

@lienielsen When you really need to save $1.50 on your Vintage deck.

Oh, I also, if I read this right, if you use this with Sea-Gate Stormcaster, the copy is of the spell is not cast, so it will resolve no matter what. That's a potential of 9 Bolt damage for 3 mana. That could be some nice tempo play.

I highly doubt people will actually pay 17-19 lives for this on turn 1. You'd need a god draw with 3-4 mana floating after the wheel to have a somewhat reliable kill. If you don't win that turn, you're pretty much dead to anything.