I know, cards are stupidly expensive. But let's say the cards magically reduced in price by 75% overnight. Why would you buy them (other than assuming it was a blip and they'd jump 150% back overnight)? You'd have nowhere to play them and the times you could use them you'd be paying big entry fees for low EV.

Nobody will host big events with huge prizes because they'd lose money as not many would show up. Most won't buy in because it's too expensive for the EV since there's not many sanctioned tourneys with any decent prize to play in. It's the chicken and the egg, except the chicken is cooked and the egg won't crack in this catch-22.

I think the real solution has nothing to do with proxies...and it may not even be a matter of the reserved list. Sure, it'd be great if power was cheaper to acquire, but there are plenty of people that could do it and don't, yet pay big for Modern and Legacy. The biggest deterrent I feel is prize support and frequency of high-profile events. If you could pick up a playset of goyfs, bobs, seizes, chalices, and other pricey cards to play a BG rock deck, or a set of blue duals, FoWs, and other junk for Legacy, you're not far away from chipping away at pieces of power.

But why buy Vintage cards? You can go to lots of Modern tourneys and some big Legacy tourneys to a lesser degree - but when are you ever going to use that Vintage deck? Once or twice a year at best? And for what - a $100 entry for a shot at winning an underground sea? Cmon.

Vintage is by far the least supported format with few "big" events and usually crappy prize support or something decent but for $100 entry. If proxies were allowed, people might get in more easily and try their luck...but nobody is going to invest all the way for a format you rarely get to play and for low EV in prizes. Us old folk who bought in early and are now near 40 are the bulk of the scene. We can't expect young players to come in if the opportunity to play often and for good prize support isn't there.

@nedleeds said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

Nobody has a right to play or engage in any commercially supported (by WotC in this case) hobby for free. Vintage, Legacy, Draft or F1 racing ... they are all expensive hobbies from the point of view of different people.

While this is true in the reality of it all, I always personally hated this argument. It is elitist - which the world is, I understand - but also implies there is no interest in facing the best of the best in cardboard battle...just the best of the wealthy.

I'd agree that they shouldn't join for free, but there's a difference between paying $50 to play and $25K to play.

@shopsaholic Didn't catch that comment. I don't know if proxies, or lack of, is a barrier to new decks, but it is a barrier to players joining paper vintage.

I agree with 10 proxy. I think 100% of Vintage should be proxy allowed, but not all Vintage be 100% proxy. I took the thread to mean all Vintage should allow some number of proxies (like 10-15). I think that helps reduce the barrier to entry. 100% proxy would be ugly.

@shopsaholic Proxies only apply to paper. MtGO really has nothing to do with it. Going to in-person tourneys and playing across from real people is a great experience imo. There are people that don't/can't play in these tourneys simply due to being priced out (I know several).

It's not about making more deck types in the format. People can't even play the decks that exist. If any deck benefits from black lotus, you're already $5K away from playing any optimal list. Kid fresh out of college isn't plopping down $5k for cardboard with $20k in student loans. That same person may be awesome at vintage, but will never get to play in anything sanctioned. That's a shame, I believe.

The other thing - Wizards ALREADY has zero support for vintage paper tournaments. So making proxies can't scare off support that doesn't and won't ever exist. If WotC ever supports vintage, it'll be through MtGO/Arena where they can make money. They get no cash from the secondary market, so they have no gain in supporting paper vintage.

I think yes. While it may irk some current players, they won't quit the game over it. We are hooked. Magic is heroin. Won't quit over something like that.

I think price IS a deterrent to many many people. It's a deterrent to me and I'm a 38 year old dude with some coin to waste. So many players I know won't invest money in the game and have bad assumptions about vintage. Without trying it, they won't play it. Without proxies, they won't try it.

So let's say you let the guy play kitchen table with proxies. He likes it. He's all in on the format. He's getting good and wants to play a tourney. The tourney virtually reads "$20K entry fee". He goes back to Modern FNM because Vintage at any competitive level is now unattainable.

Vintage should allow proxies. The prices are just stupid. If you want prices to stay high for collector value, fine. If you want it just to keep players out of the game, that's different. The ability to competitively play this format should not be determined on if you have a fat wallet or were lucky enough to start playing the game in 1993.

@chikararyuu That's exactly what I'm talking about - not that deck specifically, but that idea. I think the karn/narset decks are opening up room for new archetypes by preying on the traditional top decks. And the thing I love is that they aren't preying on the top decks as decklists, they are doing it by preying on the mechanics (draw and fast mana). THAT is how you take down top decks - take out their main mechanics, not the specific cards 1-for-1. Fancy cars are shit when you take out the engine and all their bells and whistles become garbage at that point. To @ChubbyRain 's point, that particular NYSE list does look like a beefed up Legacy deck. (not that I mind that).

@GutoCmtt This is what I was talking about (vs. Karn). Artifact mana is their achilles heel. Hit their acceleration and they are hurting severely. Just need to be sure you have the clock to capitalize on the time bought.

@chubbyrain Looks like my analysis had a bit of merit - decks adapting their strategies or becoming new decks entirely are answering the Karn/Narset menaces. Utilizing the tools themselves is not even a problem because they are tools specifically designed to beat the top mechanics. The new decks using them are not hurt by them so much. MH1 added some additional tools, but we'd known about FoV and its potential for weeks now. Even not being play legal, it's been in MtGO for a minute, and I've been decktesting with it since it was spoiled. It's just my guess, but I think we'll end up with some new "pillars" if they leave narset and karn unrestricted, and I will happy dance all day if that happens. The top decks of old are going to be facing obstacles they can not easily handle, and I suspect it will change the landscape for the better.

@desolutionist I tend to build my decks to fight/go under strategies. Shops fighting hurkylls is a great example of fighting on the wrong axis. Karn tends to be in mana-ramp decks. Hitting the mana ramp helps. Narset tends to be in blue decks fighting blue decks, where "draw" is their axis. Hit the draw mechanic/dodge using so much draw.

Could a blood moon deck with SSG, tombs, ESG, stop the karn/shop ramp? Maybe. Would be decent vs bazaar as well if you could consistently drop a turn 1 moon effect. Could that same deck run grudges, rebs, rods, and other things? Sure. Can it run quick, sizable creatures to be a decent clock as well? Sure. Would this type of deck work overall? I dunno, maybe. Maybe not. Worth a try.