@dracomnisgt The list in that link is basically ad nauseum tendrils with painter/stone jammed in. It utilizes Reap well, but that doesn't go with REB. REB is good in general, but I also dislike calling "blue" on painter as you now allow the opponent to pitch any card - even land - to FoW. I'm thinking of building more around Painter and cards synergistic with a single color choice. Something like naming "White." Havoc becomes a cool card because for 2 mana, you get a 1-sided pyrostatic pillar. 10 spells and you win. You can also play gloom. 3 mana and it's a 1-sided triple sphere effect. By using black/red cards, you also get all the best tutors and goblin welder + goblin engineer.

I'd suggest R/B because of the welders and tutors, but you could try red/white. White has 4x enlightened tutor, great foils to black, and that could let you utilize reap too if you go RGW. The design space is wide open. I wouldn't take a deck with one strategy and jam painter in it. Build around painter and make the grindstone an incidental win.

I actually considered painter with the grindstone kill as secondary. There are a host of strategies you can use that just wreck a mono-colored deck. Think white and Gloom, black and CoP black/reap, etc. You can make a great value-town deck with painter where the grindstone is just a bonus "oops, I win". I think it's viable with the right thought put into it - painter itself is immune to null rod effects.

Usually it's in response to any recurred threat that will be devastating - like an ichorid + 2 bloodghast turn - when they activate any of those abilities. Another good time, if no unmanageable threat is imminent, is when they have a few dredgers in the yard, but an empty hand...meaning they have to top deck a dredger with their draw or bazaar (and not be dredging that turn). That can buy you the turn or two you need to win.

Note that you'll never have priority to exile hogaak, if the dredge pilot is competent and has the 2 black creatures in play to cast him. You need leyline or Rip to stop hogaak as instant speed is too slow.

@blindtherapy PO bounces non-token, so you can't gain cards off the treasures...it's 1R to cast to gain maybe 3 mana? Doesn't seem great. It's a lot of mana vs a full shops board, but against a shops board with 6+ permanents, you're losing anyway if you don't have FoV/hurkylls.

@babau Yes, but 1 non-shop mana on turn 2 should not be hard at all. The ability to flash a dreadnaught in on the opponent's EoT turn 1 is such a huge thing that it can't be underestimated. Dack stealing your DN is gg most times. Metmorph copying and such (fringe case) is also avoided with this. You still have to connect twice, and are open to a ton of artifact hate, so likely the format has gotten too fast and answer-heavy (force of vigor) for any non-lock artifact plan nowadays.

@babau Torpor Orb is not better. With torpor orb, you have to cast dreadnaught at sorcery speed and pass the turn, opening you up to a Dack steal. With this, you can flash it in on their EoT and then flip it and swing on yours. This card is WAY better than torpor orb for sneaking in artifact fatties.

LOVE this card...basically a fixed illusionary mask!

Return of The Riddler????

Workshop + this/ill mask/torpor orb + dreadnaught/undercosted fatty????

@hardy Sounds good - yeah, I have 2 kids myself....so that's why I rarely get on until 9pm here

I'm most often KillerKarma (sometimes thewhitedragon69) on Cockatrice. I'm mainly into Modern, Vintage, Old School (in that order), but dabble in legacy on rare occassion. I'm on Cockatrice almost nightly (Texas central time from 9-11pm mainly). Feel free to add and PM me and we can play any time!

@john-cox Wow - that brings back some memories. I haven't looked at that list in forever. I remember the 4x trinisphere days were just absurd, but the 4x chalice version after the trini restriction was still amazing. The ability to mask in a 1cmc dreadnaught through a chalice @1 was the bee's knees. Loved that deck.

Side note - if I remember correctly, at the time, it was the most expensive deck list in paper ever built!