I like the hate bears, personally. I like non-haymaker decks having a chance. 2/2s don't "stop you from casting spells" like trinisphere did. You can cast them...just remove the creature. Yes, that means you can't run a linear 59 cards with a single hurkyls. You ACTUALLY have to run bolts, plows, etc. GASP! The ones complaining about the hate bears are the ones who love linear strategies and don't want competition...just to win fast and brutally. They are probably the same people that kill cats and smack babies because it shows their might against a clearly inferior opponent.

I love Vintage - and I have massive contempt for the format. My contempt doesn't come from the brokenness of decks. I wasn't even feeling contempt when turn 1 Workshop-> Trinisphere (a.k.a. have FoW or you lose) was common. Granted, I was the one casting trini off workshops, but I digress .
I feel contempt for 2 reasons. One - I hate blue. I find the overwhelming number of cheap/free counterspells to be discouraging to play against. It's like playing against a shops lock, but it doesn't matter if you are on the play or draw because they have their lock for free on turn 0. I am also bitter that blue has had the most broken spells since the beginning and it continued through Urza's block. Not until afterward did they start balancing the color wheel. Just consider the 1 mana for +3 cycle. Ritual, bolt, healing salve, giant growth, ANCESTRAL FUCKIN RECALL. Counterspells are also the ONLY answer to every spell, permanent or stack. Every color has permanent removal, but only blue can reactively stop spells. Blue also has bounce to remove ANY permanent without restriction. It's just an absurdly unbalanced color.
My second reason for contempt is more for the player base. The people are cool as far as being people. They are shitty for clutching on to the blue vs shops vs dredge triangle that's been vintage since ravnica. Humans is a nice innovation and I love the new survival list. I actually run Dark Depths myself because it is universally deemed fragile and slow - and I love to prove that wrong. I like when people innovate and I like a wealth of different, viable decks (thus why I love Modern now). I can't stand when people take a deck off the internet, swap 4 cards, then add their name to it like they invented the list. Further, most people won't even try to come up with anything new because they figure someone else already made the best deck, so they'll just netdeck it and win without needing to be innovative at all. Most people copy an exact 75, and it is sickening to me. I hate it even more when people take a netdeck, change 2 cards and rename it as if it's their own invention. That's like me taking a stock 60 merfolk deck, swapping 2 silvergils for 2 merfolk tricksters and calling it Miller Merfolk...or taking Huckleberry Finn, rewriting page 67 and saying I wrote the great-American novel with my name on the cover. Magic plagerism, I consider it. Awful (if my contempt didn't come across enough).

I think counterspells are interactive in that both players act/react, but interactivity is NOT what most anti-blue players gripe about. What they really mean when they say "Counterspells are uninteractive" is "When my opponent plays counterspells, I don't feel like I'm even in the game." There are many games vs control that go like so:
Player A - plays land, mox, 1cmc spell
Player B - missteps
Player B - plays land, ponder
Player A - plays land, spell
Player B - FoWs
Player B - plays land, mox, ancestral self
Player A - plays land, plays bigger spell
Player B - mana drain
Player B - plays land, Jace TMS, brainstorms
Player A - plays land, casts spell (not a threat with Jace), resolves, casts real threat
Player B - Gush, FoW
Player B - mox, tinker for BSC, brainstorms with Jace, time walk.

In that game, Player A hangs around a few turns and there's plenty of interaction. In reality, Player B was solitairing and Player A was basically draw/land/pass for all intents and purposes. Player A may well have never sat down at the table and would have been as much "in the game."

I feel like the format has changed a lot with new printings and restrictions, but I think it is not necessarily bottlenecking in a critical mass as much as it is turning directions like a winding road.

Back in its heyday, it was gushatog, oath, and trinishops with an occassional fish deck (literally blue fish). That was 2002ish. Then planeswalkers came out and that card type got pushed to the limits with narset, oko, karn (consider that the OG "this is too busted" PW, Jace TMS, is now virtually unplayable!) But now we're seeing a new direction to the game - creature's matter/self mill. With Thassa and Jace o' mysteries and underworld breach to go along with arcanist, delve spells, etc., milling yourself has become a win condition.

Cards like DRS started the creature push, but now vengevine, hollow one, stonecoil, collector ouphe, and others have made the game slow down from the "chain my gushes" days of magic and made the attack phase as relevant as it was in old school times.

The only storm cards we really got any time recently was PO, and since then ouphe, karn, narset and such have just punished the "draw deck/drop jewelry" strategies. The game looks fundamentally different, but not in that there's only 1 viable deck from saturation. As a guy who always hated the shops/blue-draw/bazaar triangle of the vintage format, I'm very happy that we've finally broken that trifecta. Those are still powerful axis cards, but decks not even running or needing those engines are doing great things. BUG is a deck, oko oath is a deck, thassa+consult is a deck, hollow vine is a deck, fastbond is a deck, and to a lesser extent fringe decks (like my own welder deck) have become playable and respectable in the meta - hell, even freaking NINJAS...I repeat, NINJAS, have the ability to win. And of course dredge, PO/storm, shops, and xerox are still decks. That's more diversity in viable strategies than I've ever seen in vintage, honestly. Any of those decks can play well and win, whereas before only the three axis REALLY could win and fringe decks had barely a puncher's chance. I think Vintage is as good as ever, if not better.

Put it this way - I ONLY played vintage from 1994-2008 and then modern came out. Vintage got stale to me and Modern became my go to format. But in the past year or so, Vintage is now my fave format again. That says a lot about the meta to me.

@kistrand To piggy back on this, plan for the worst case scenario, but don't always act like the worst case scenario is the case. For example, if your opponent is on blue, has drawn some and has 5 cards in hand - he MAY have FoW, so you have to carefully consider casting that clutch spell. But if you DON'T cast that spell, and have nothing you could topdeck to push the spell through next turn, then not only did you virtually give them FoW in their hand, but you also gave them time to dig more and actually find FoW.
Sometimes they have the stop, sometimes they don't. Sometimes you cast your spell and they counter and it seems crippling (but if you held it in your hand, they'd STILL have the stop, so does it matter?). If you never cast the spell out of fear of a counter, then they ALWAYS have the stop, whether a counter is in their hand or not.

This might actually have the most utility vs survival. Obviously you hit survival with the enchantment mode. But you can hit Hollow One with the artifact mode and an untriggered Vengevine with the grave mode. Pretty solid I say, and potentially maindeckable.

I think yes. While it may irk some current players, they won't quit the game over it. We are hooked. Magic is heroin. Won't quit over something like that.

I think price IS a deterrent to many many people. It's a deterrent to me and I'm a 38 year old dude with some coin to waste. So many players I know won't invest money in the game and have bad assumptions about vintage. Without trying it, they won't play it. Without proxies, they won't try it.

So let's say you let the guy play kitchen table with proxies. He likes it. He's all in on the format. He's getting good and wants to play a tourney. The tourney virtually reads "$20K entry fee". He goes back to Modern FNM because Vintage at any competitive level is now unattainable.

Vintage should allow proxies. The prices are just stupid. If you want prices to stay high for collector value, fine. If you want it just to keep players out of the game, that's different. The ability to competitively play this format should not be determined on if you have a fat wallet or were lucky enough to start playing the game in 1993.

@wappla As primarily a Modern player now (I rarely play Vintage due to location, but the narrow options of viable decks is also a turnoff), I think you have a wrong view of diversity. In modern, there are 20ish linear decks, zoo/burn/GW CoCo/eldrazi/jund/death's shadow/etc. (all of which are viable depending on the meta), but there are also various combo decks, mill, lantern control, Esper control, Bant, Grixis, etc. There is real diversity (not an illusion).

Many cards are on a similar power level, but some are more powerful in certain builds and less so than others. Kalitas, for example, is a powerful creature in Jund. He is much less good in something like BW tokens. Vintage however...ancestral is just best in everything that taps islands, so there's no real thinking about what fits where when it comes to several staple cards.

Modern doesn't have the problem of people not knowing what is optimal...it's just that different lists can have different cards be optimal, and a card that is optimal in one strategy is just okay in another. Also there are a ton of solid decks that are viable choices to win any tourney. The entire color pie is equally competitive. It's not just blue splashing whatever support color. You can run into a billion different decks in a big tourney and your SB needs to really account for a lot of things (and your deck be fast enough or resilient enough to beat lots of other strategies). On the other hand, vintage basically has a big handful of cards that go in every deck and a chunk that is different depending on kill condition. Every blue deck runs ancestral, walk, FoW, (and lately gush), etc. Every shop deck runs thorn/chalice/golem, trini, etc. Vintage tourneys are basically a field of X workshops, gush decks, and bazaar...an occasional storm or oath deck in the mix.

You think in-game choices are all that matter, but many of us like deck building as much as the in-game. Modern also has a slew of in game choices outside of some super-linear aggro decks, but I disagree that in-game is all that matters. Winning with your own deck creation is also very gratifying as opposed to just grabbing whatever list so-and-so played and tweaking 2 cards. To me, that's letting someone else do the heavy lifting and claiming victory on the back of their work.

Side note, if you think your card choices/in-game decisions don't matter in Modern because you face one of 4 decks and lose no matter what, you have not been playing enough modern...at least not well. Play decisions matter a LOT in anything that's not all burn/creatures, of which there are a ton of choices. That's also where deck building choices come in - you need to build versatile decks that handle a lot.

I personally like being able to choose between one of 50 decks or building my own and being able to win a tourney. Having to pick between 7-8 deck choices to have any viable chance of winning is far more limiting to me. It seems you'd like a format of just 1 deck where the only decider of win/loss is how you play the deck. That's basically poker. And while I love poker, I also like games where I have choices and freedom to design outside of the game play. I don't like rock-paper-scissors. A format where a multitude of strategies and card choices are viable and equally powerful to the rest is a good thing IMO.

@desolutionist It seems to me that your beef with Vintage is more a change in your perspective in life overall. If you're looking forward to spending more of your free time on family and business and only occasionally playing magic, then the game as a whole is likely becoming a lower priority to things that matter more in the grand scheme.

@evouga In theory, you could run a null rod based blue deck with this guy. Tezz 1.0 isn't so hot there. Seeing as how P.O. is big now and vault/key is heavily played as you note, null rod should be more prevalent. This guy dodges that bullet. Tezz 1.0 is a fantastic walker, don't get me wrong, but in different builds/situations, this guy might be as good or better. Or, run both together - with Jace as well. Artifact based superfriends? Null rod control superfriends?

I think Spell pierce is just better 99% of the time. If you are at 1 mana and stopping an early spell, Pierce does as well as anything in vintage (or annul vs shops bots as tech from the SB). If you are later game, pierce is still more valuable since it stops things >1cmc.

@schmakt On T1, in a list with FoW, I would always go for 15 vs the unknown. This lets you pitch cast 1 FoW and survive one bolt. If I know my Opp isn't on bolt, You can cast DD and still have 1 FoW life open. You draw the nut, you play for the win. If git probe is one of your combo pieces, you might save +2 life.

Check here first for rulings questions:
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Default.aspx

Rulings
10/4/2004 The defending player gets to choose which cards they discard.
4/15/2013 An ability that triggers when something “attacks and isn't blocked” triggers in the declare blockers step after blockers are declared if (1) that creature is attacking and (2) no creatures are declared to block it. It will trigger even if that creature was put onto the battlefield attacking rather than having been declared as an attacker in the declare attackers step.

@marland_moore You exile the coffin to use it, so I don't see how.

@blindtherapy Yes, 12-16 is probably a bit exaggerated, but I was looking at the posted proposed shell. 8+ is probably more typical, and I think the vast majority of decks are running blue pitch counters at least and several adding in FoV.

@Protoaddict I don't know how much of a clock this really is on its own. Crusader is a 5 turn clock with protection from bolt, plow, and is immune to artifact removal or most token chump blockers (red/white). There are a ton of spells in infect that make that clock 2-3x faster if not a 1-shot kill. Fleshgorger is on its own a 7 turn clock, has no protection built in (paying 3 life to kill it is nothing), and has some evasion. Even blinked, it's a 3 turn clock at BEST.
In Modern LE, you can cast a fatty and ride it to victory....but they are legit fatties that are usually a 4-5 turn clock in a slower/less explosive format. A 7 turn clock in something like Vintage just seems really tough to pull off. Even Thalia and friends are cheap AND disruptive, so the clock can be slower. This doesn't disrupt and costs 3 for a 3/3.
I'd LOVE it to work in Vintage, I'm just incredibly doubtful it could be done.

@protoaddict said in [BRO} Phyrexian Fleshgorger:

If your opponent tries to FOV this card, pays 3 life, and then you respond by blinking it, I almost find it hard to believe that you could lose that game.

Yes, but that's not how it'll play out. I think they'll let a 3/3 stick around and just tinker->win. If this resolves, you'll probably have to try to blink it to get enough of a clock to matter, and then they'll FoV it in response. With discard, you'll have to try to clear the hand of counters, tap out to cast this, or wait until turn 3-4 with moxen to drop and protect this. If you ritual it out, you could possibly pull it off with extra mana to duress first or blink after....but if you have BBBB, why aren't you just duressing and doomsdaying into the win on the spot?

I'd love to see it happen too, but I dunno that it's not going to be like sedge troll in old keeper decks...where the card was subpar, but the win con didn't matter due to the rest of the deck. Any deck that can reliably pick apart an opponent's hand and keep up with draw spells and tinkerish bombs and topdeck tutors...why wouldn't just about any win package be better?

@protoaddict Yeah, I don't mean this card does it in a way that hasn't already been done repeatedly...I just mean it does it AGAIN in an angle that hasn't been done. The color pie has been beaten and blended set after set, which takes it far from the pre-fetchland game that I enjoyed. Heck, even fetches let you play multiple colors, but the colors still had identity back then. Now, I can barely tell a difference between any colors outside of blue, which is just loaded with crazy cheap counterspells.

@daniel-worobec The biggest difference is that one is good when you know what you're trying to beat, and the other is good when you have no idea what the wincons are, but hope they are running 3 or less. Vs oath, Cap was a great shop sb tech because you'd yank their 2 or 3 critters, not the oath itself. Vs tendrils-type decks, you pull the kill spells. I imagine you could do the same vs doomsday.

My point was never which effect was better, as they are different based on the matchup. My point was that this type of "rip out all copies named X" effect was uniquely black (even with a blue or red splash), but this card destroys the color pie. Now even mono-W or mono-G can exile all copies of something, which is just wrong to me. It not-inconsequentially gives red a preemptive answer to troublesome enchantments which was also something that color never could deal with before. I dislike the bleeding of colors. This is part of a greater trend lately where even black now has good enchantment removal in spells like Invoke Despair and Feed the Swarm. It's just not good imho. Part of the game I always liked was color identity and having to make decisions during deck construction based on what you gained or lost by picking certain colors. Now it's just like...play blue and use cards like this that can fix any color's deficiencies.

@protoaddict This + Crash of Rhinos + As Foretold is a sweet chain of spells in Modern. That style of deck already has Dreadhorde Arcanist and Electrodominance and Finale though.

@protoaddict The ripping from hand is something cap never could do. It also only hit 3x card, while an opponent can run 4x any crux card that they could tutor for (oath of druids, etc). Sadistic Sacrament was always a better cap since you could turn 1 ritual it, but it still left the 1-of in their deck that they could fetch and go off with. Black has a ton of this type of effect - Lost Legacy, Cranial Extraction, Dispossess, Infinite Obliteration, Memoricide, Necromantia, etc. Even cards like Lobatomy and Slaughter Games require black. Now ANY color can spend the same 4 mana and achieve that Cranial Extraction sans black.

The whole 5-color cycle of "exile all copies" required a spell to be cast, on the battlefield, or in the grave to work before. Only black could preemptively exile all copies of a lynchpin card in any zone...until now.