Unrestrict Necro you fucking cowards.

RFC: Improving The Mana Drain

Or, Better Living through Stricter Posting Standards

Preface

Why I’m posting this

Or, Something is rotten in The Mana Drain

In the past months, I have noticed a marked decrease in the overall post quality on this forum. This decrease has taken the form of low effort posts, poorly reasoned arguments, and, personal attacks.

These personal attacks are by far the most alarming. I worry that we have lost sight of why we are here. The person who introduced me to gaming, Will Pagani, founder of Asgard Games and developer at Privateer Press frequently remarks,

Remember: The object of the game is to win. But the point of the game is to have fun.

I believe that all of us play Vintage primarily to have fun. While winning certainly is fun, it is not our primary goal. Vintage has a dramatically higher cost of entry and dramatically lower prize pool. This means that, even if one wanted to, one could never “live the dream” or “go infinite” by playing Vintage. I believe that Vintage is special in this respect as the need to win is therefore diminished.

How I’ve come up with these proposed rules

I’ve looked over the rules from The Source and the TMD archive. I’ve added in some observations of the application of unwritten rules (ie, mod actions that occur when a post doesn’t explicitly violate any written rule). And I’ve added a bit of my own opinion both about the problems I observe here on TMD and what my ideal Magic forum might look like.

Proposed Rules

Or, I came to The Mana Drain to post deliberately.

...the main goal of TMD is to be that "medical journal" of Vintage where ideas and decks are thought-out and criticized at the highest level.

- Dante, on the old TMD

A. Posting decks

1. No post shall consist of only a decklist.

• An exception shall be made for posts made in response to a request for a decklist that has been previously discussed. IE, In a thread about a particular deck or card, a user may post a decklist without further comment if that user has previously discussed the deck without posting the list and the list has been requested by another user.

2. A deck’s thread may be locked and directed to a new thread if a suitably high quality primer has been written for that deck.

• Rules regarding primers TBD

3. Card choices shall be addressed.

• Any non-obvious card choice shall have reasons listed for choosing that card, including other cards considered for that slot.
• Obvious card choices may be grouped together. But a decklist shall not be expressed solely through obvious choices. EG, Moxen and mana-producing lands may be listed as "Mana producers." But Oath of Druids, Forbidden Orchard, Griselbrand, Yawgmoth's Will, and Memory's Journey may not be listed as one large "Oath Combo" grouping.

4. Any post containing a decklist for a deck not already present in the metagame must answer the following:

• Why play this deck over alternatives?
• How does this deck match up against other decks present in the metagame?
• An exception to this rule is made when the context of the decklist is an illustration of an idea.
  • EG: A spoiler post may include a potential decklist for that card.
  • EG: A discussion of a potential changes to the banned and restricted list may include a decklist to illustrate how a deck may change post-restriction.

B. Single Card Discussion (SCD)

1. An SCD thread shall begin with an English-language image of the card and the card's full oracle text.

• If multiple printings of a card exist, the image used shall be of a printing whose text most closely matches the current oracle text of the card.
• The resolution of the image shall meet or exceed the resolution of the scan/picture available on Gatherer.
  • At the time of this writing, that resolution is 233 x 310 pixels.
  • Users are encouraged to use the scans from MagicCards.info, which have a resolution of 312 x 445, a 92% increase.
• For recently spoiled cards, a best effort shall be made. The original poster shall be expected to update their post when a suitably high-quality image becomes available.

2. SCD opening posts shall answer at minimum the following:

• What deck or archetype is this card being considered for?
  • If this card creates a new deck or archetype, a decklist shall be included.
• What card(s) does this card replace and why is this card better than the card(s) it is replacing?
• What changes to the metagame have made this card an option?
  • In the case of spoilers, this may be omitted as the change may be assumed to be, "This card was printed."

C. Respect Each Other

Or, Don't be a dick.

1. Users shall make a best-effort attempt to partake in a dialectic; not a debate.

• Debate means you are trying to win; dialectic means you are using disagreement to discover what is true.

2. Users shall be honest.

• This includes intellectual honesty.

3. Users shall not flame other users.

• Flame baiting shall be considered the same as flaming.
• Users shall not reply to baiting or flaming with more flaming.
  • Users shall report flaming.

4. Users shall not make ad hominem attacks. Criticize plays, analysis, or logic but not each other.
5. Users shall not state anything as a fact unless they truly believe it to be so.

• This includes opinions. A fact is something that is demonstrably true.
• Users shall not be criticized stating that they are unsure of whether something is a fact.
• Users are encouraged to reference the Comprehensive Rules, the Magic Tournament Rules, the Infraction Procedure Guide, and the Magic Rules Chat before making statements regarding rules or policies.
  • The most current version of those documents may be found at http://wpn.wizards.com/en/resources/rules-documents .
  • A hyperlinked version of the Comprehensive Rules may be found at Yawgatog.com.

6. Users shall not encourage violence of any kind against any person or group.
7. Users shall refrain from obscene, graphic, or otherwise offensive topics or words. This includes but is not limited to the following. Whether something violates this rule is not up for debate or discussion with moderators and/or admins. Only the I know it when I see it test is required for a moderator or admin to determine that something violates this rule.

• Profane or vulgar language
• Racism
• Sexism
• Anything related to any individual or group's sexual orientation or gender identity

D. General Posting Quality

1. Users shall make a best-effort attempt to use proper English grammar, punctuation, and spelling.
2. Users shall use paragraph breaks to to separate thoughts and avoid run-on sentences.

• Users are also encouraged to review the Markdown syntax and Markdown Cheatsheet to further enhance the organization and readability of their posts.

3. Users shall not derail threads with off topic posts.
4. Shorthand card names reduce readability and increase confusion, especially for newer players. Shorthand card names shall be used sparingly. Shorthand card names shall not be used if the card being referred to is not immediately obvious.

• An exception shall be made in cases where only one card that could match that abbreviation is relevant to the current discussion.
  • Example: A decklist contains Jace, the Mind Sculptor and no other Jace planeswalker cards. "Jace" shall be assumed to be referring Jace, the Mind Sculptor as it is the only Jace being discussed.
• Examples of acceptable shorthand: Ruby, Sea, Workshop, Snapcaster, Chalice, "5 Moxen" for Mox Ruby, Underground Sea, Mishra's Workshop, Snapcaster Mage, Chalice of the Void, and all five Alpha/Beta/Unlimited Moxen
• Examples of unacceptable shorthand: Jace, Lili, Jace 2.0, Seal, Lighting Bolt Machine

E. Reserved thread content

Users shall not discuss the following outside of threads specifically intended for their dicussion:

1. Reprints, including The Official Reprint Policy aka "The Reserved List"

• This includes discussion regarding satisfaction or dissatisfaction with a reprint or lack of reprint of a non-reserved card.

2. The Banned and Restricted List, except as it relates to:

• Recent changes and how they affect the topic at hand
• Preparing for possible future changes EG, If an update is scheduled shortly before a tournament, players may wish to discuss and practice with possible post-restriction decks.

3. Proxies, playtest cards, counterfeits, and related matters
4. Prices or availability of cards, except as it affects the likelihood of a card or deck being played.
5. Problems or complaints about Magic: The Gathering Online, except as it affects the likelihood of a card or deck being played.
6. Any other document or action taken by Wizards of the Coast or another group unless directly relevant to the conversation at hand. This includes, but is not limited to:

• The Vintage Super League
• Policies of Tournament Organizers

Deck Description

Two Card Monte is a [[Mishra's Workshop]]-based combo deck that looks to win the game through the use of a number of two card combos. At the very least, the combos of [[Helm of Obedience]] + [[Leyline of the Void]] and [[Painter's Servant]] + [[Grindstone]] are used, though some players choose to add further win conditions. 2CM players frequently choose the deck because they want to play something that is quite powerful and capable of winning quickly while also wanting to play something outside of the usual results-defined metagame.

Decklist

This is the deck I played at the Lone Star Lhurgoyf Vintage Invitational:

# Two Card Monte

Combos (18)
3 Helm of Obedience
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

Card Selection (8)
3 Goblin Welder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Memory Jar

Other (6)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Pyroblast
1 Time Walk

Mana (28)
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
4 Mox Opal

Sideboard(15)
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Containment Priest
1 Balance
1 City of Brass

Primary Combos

Leyline of the Void + Helm of Obedience

[[Helm of Obedience]] mills the targeted player one card at a time, "until a creature card or X cards are put into that graveyard this way, whichever comes first." (Emphasis mine) [[Leyline of the Void]] creates a replacement effect that prevents cards from ever going to your opponent's graveyard. Therefore, with Leyline of the Void in play, any Helm of Obedience activation for X>0 targeting an opponent will result in their entire library being exiled.

Painter's Servant + Grindstone

This one is a bit more self-evident. With [[Painter's Servant]] in play, all cards will share a color. Therefore, [[Grindstone]] will mill the targeted player's entire library.

Synergies and strengths with these combos

Leyline of the Void

Leyline of the Void is the most obvious strength of these combos. With reasons ranging from Delve to Flashback to [[Crucible of Worlds]], there are few, if any, mainstream Vintage decks that do not suffer at least a little bit from losing their graveyard.

Additionally, Leyline of the Void offsets most of the negative effects of activating Grindstone without a Painter's Servant in play.

Painter's Servant

When Painter's Servant names Blue, [[Pyroblast]] becomes a one mana counter-or-destroy-anything spell. Note that in some situations, it may be wise to name a color other than Blue with Painter's Servant to keep from allowing your opponent to pitch otherwise-nonblue cards to their [[Force of Will]

Helm of Obedience and Grindstone

Activating Grindstone or Helm of Obedience without the other halves of their combos in play can be used to disrupt your opponent, especially when they're using [Brainstorm] effects or top-deck tutors. However, the opponent may come to expect this and Brainstorm or tutor accordingly (or even put back cards that are better in the Graveyard). Additionally, you may be fueling a Delve, Flashback, Deathrite Shaman, Yawgmoth's Will, Crucible or Worlds, or numerous other graveyard synergies for your opponent.

Activating Helm of Obedience is especially dangerous against creature-heavy decks. Trading one of your win conditions for a creature is rarely going to be a beneficial trade. Note that against combo or combo-like decks that attempt to win with creatures (eg, Bomberman), it may be worth it to remove an opponent's primary win condition. Against combo or combo-like decks that attempt to win with a big creature (eg, Oath), it's certainly worth trading half of your combo kill for a couple-of-turns clock - and it feels so good!

Other Combos

These two combos are less common in 2CM decks. I've added them because they are additional kills, they each contain a card that is otherwise good in the deck, and because it helps to further illustrate the possibilities of the deck.

These combos are part of the reason that the primary combos are 4+3 and 4+3 rather than a full 4+4 and 4+4.

Tinker + Bot

Using [[Tinker]] to find a large Artifact Creature is one of the classic ways to win in Vintage. I chose to play Tinker because it is otherwise good in the deck, as three of the four primary win conditions in the deck are artifacts. It can also find some sideboard protection such as [[Ensnaring Bridge]]. Since I've already chosen to play Tinker, I added a bot as another way to win quickly in the deck.

[[Sphinx of the Steel Wind]] is my personal favorite Tinker bot. Which bot is best is likely a discussion best left to its own post.

Time Vault + Voltaic Key

[[Time Vault]] + [[Voltaic Key]] is another classic Vintage win. I'll admit that it's a bit forced in this deck. However, the combo is easily cast, found, and activated in the deck. The Voltaic key acts as a role player ramping with [[Sol Ring]], [[Mana Vault]], and [[Mana Crypt]], stops Mana Vault from pinging you, and can give your Tinker bot vigilance.

Other card choices

Goblin Welder

[[Goblin Welder]]'s uses in this deck apply to both sides of the board. You can weld away an opponent's hate-piece, exchange mismatched combo pieces, or turn low-value tapped moxen into win conditions. To be honest, this primer could easily be over half Welder interactions!

There are two common use cases for using Welder on your opponent's side. Defensively, Welder can get rid of a big threat such as a [[Lodestone Golem]] or [[Blightsteel Colossus]]. Offensively, Welder can turn an opponent's defensive artifacts, such as [[Chalice of the Void]] or [[Null Rod]] into something less problematic to your plan.

Welder can also be used on your side of the board. The most common example of this is returning a countered or destroyed combo piece. This is a rare instance where, even against a perfect opponent, casting spells into a Chalice may be the right call!

One last point for Welder: The Painter+Grindstone trick. Given a Grindstone, the mana to activate it, and a Painter's Servant in the Graveyard, you can activate the combo. To do so, activate Grindstone maintaining priority then weld out Grindstone for Painter's Servant. When Grindstone's ability resolves, all cards will share a color and you will mill your opponent's entire library.

Ethersworn Canonist

[[Ethersworn Canonist]] is a strong role player in the deck. It rarely affects you while hurting all non-Workshops strategies. It keeps Mentors to a reasonable size, prevents Storm from comboing off, and ensures you have the last word when countering a non-Artifact spell on your opponent's turn. If worst comes to worst, a 2/2 can serve as a 10/10 clock.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

[[Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth]] makes your Black tutors easier to cast. More importantly, you play several lands that have restrictions on them. [[Mishra's Workshop]] can now cast non-artifacts or activate them. [[Ancient Tomb]] and [[Mana Confluence]] no longer hurt, if you don't mind them only making (B)

Other Tips

• The contents of the Graveyard and Exile zones are both public information. If an opponent chooses to go through the combo rather than conceding, make note of the cards that are flipped and use that information to your advantage in sideboarding and future games.
• If your opponent has [[Null Rod]] in their deck, it may be wise to not play your [[Leyline of the Void]] so that you can use [[Goblin Welder]] as an additional way to get rid of Null Rod.

Matchups and Sideboarding

To be added. I'm the kind of guy who likes to sideboard by feel (and beer)

I'm training for the non-Magic portion. I drank most of a bottle of Crown during the Texas game last weekend.

@thecravenone said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

We considered the further step of restricting Sphere of Resistance, but prefer to take this smaller step first and reevaluate based on data and community feedback.

Anything to avoid restricting Workshop lol

EE7 decklists have been posted. Top 16 as links for convenience:

1. Ryan Glackin - Sun Titan Dredge
2. Michael Scheffenacker - Ravager Shops
3. Timothy Candee - Dredge
4. Nicholas Dijohn - Ravager Shops
5. Joe Brennan - BUG
6. Hank Zhong - Sylvan Mentor
7. Nathaniel Riggs - Foundry Shops
8. Daniel Barkon - Ravager Shops
9. Brenden Mccarley - UR Delver
10. Mike Canzanella - BUG
11. Jostin Rodriguez - Ravager Shops
12. John Grudzina - BUG
13. David Long - Pitch Dredge
14. Wilson Hunder - Paradoxical Storm
15. Jose Ortiz - Ravager Shops
16. Keith Seals - Dredge

By deck type:
Shops: 6
Dredge: 4
BUG: 3
Other: 3

This is likely the biggest event before Eternal Weekend. If anyone has further metagame breakdown, that'd be great for EW prep!

You read that title right. You're about to read about playing 5 C Staxx in 2019.

5C Staxx has a long and distinguished history. I'm too lazy to find it but I'm pretty sure it top 8'd at least one Vintage Champs.

Here's the oldest decklist I'm able to find, from this article by @Smmenen (who I really hope chimes in with some more history of the deck!)

# 5C Stax 2005
## Composite Decklist
Hate (19)
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds

Fun (8)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Triskelion
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sundering Titan

Card Selection (7)
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotation

Mana (26)
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault

Sideboard (15)
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Jester's Cap
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Viashino Heretic
2 Choke
2 Seal of Cleansing
1 Duplicant
1 In The Eye of Chaos

In 2008, my best friend opened a game store. That first Friday, I played my first sanctioned Magic event. This lead to me building my first competitive Magic deck, Bant Aggro in Shards of Alara Standard. As soon as I experienced my first rotation, I knew that rotating formats were not for me. I built my second competitive deck ever, and my first Vintage deck, 5C Staxx. We have had long and torrid love affair ever since.

Since a Vintage scene formed in Houston a few years ago, I've toyed with a more modern version of the deck. Here's my most recent build.

# 5C Staxx 2018
## Sam Craven

Hate (15)
4 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Reistance
1 Trinipshere
3 Crucible of Worlds

Fun (10)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Balance
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Swords to Plowshares

Card Selection (8)
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Dack Fayden
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotation

Mana (26)
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Mana Confluence
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Spire of Industry
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Brabarian Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Chromatic Lantern

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Null Rod
1 Jester's Cap
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Abrade
2 Choke
1 Lhurgoyf

The last time I played this deck, I posted a picture of the deck. A friend who had very recently said that they needed to take a break from Magic asked for a deck tech because of how fun the deck looked. But I'm very lazy.

So last night, I got two friends to podcast with me. One of them plays a lot of Workshops and the other plays a lot of EDH and wacky brews. I surprised them with our subject and asked them to discuss the deck with me as well as brewing a more up to date version. The conversation went a lot of directions and I had to look up a lot of cards. Listen if you'd like more info but here's the sketch we ended up with:

# 5C Staxx 2019
## Lone Star Lhurgoyfs

Hate (14)
3 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
2 Crucible of Worlds

Fun (8)
4 Goblin Welder
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
1 Balance
1 Swords to Plowshares

Card Selection (10)
4 Karn, the Great Creator
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Dack Fayden
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotation

Mana (28)
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Mana Confluence
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Spire of Industry
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Chromatic Lantern

Sideboard (15)
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Jester's Cap
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Abrade
2 Choke
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Smokestack
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds

I'm too lazy to write in full English sentences so here's a non-exhaustive list of cards that are in this deck and cool things they can do and/or reasons that they've been chosen.

[[Karn, the Great Creator]]

The following cards were moved to the side so that Karn can act as an addition four copies of those cards.

• Smokestack
• Crucible of Worlds
• Ratchet Bomb (Could also be Engineered Explosives)

These cards were put directly into the side

• Mycosynth Lattice - Combo, duh
• Chalice of the Void - With the spread of mana costs in this deck, Chalice isn't great. Grabbing it with Karn makes it much less of a liability to draw.

Oh, also Null Rod main is okay.

[[Goblin Welder]]

This is a not-at-all thorough list of sweet things you can do with Welder.

• If your Shops opponent has an X/X in the yard, it says T:Destroy target artifact an opponent controls
• Force an opponent to sac to Smokestack, then weld it out so it doesn't affect you. If you weld in another, you can add a counter to it, effectively making Smokestack one sided.
• Exchange Sundering Titan back and forth to blow up lands repeatedly.
• Turn a mox into a Lotus
• Recur Triskelion to shoot things (this is why Trike is in the deck instead of Walking Ballista)

Quick Bullet Points

• Sundering Titan - We're trying to be hateful. Sundering Titan is hateful as can be and is also a quick wincon. This is the Tinker bot to play. I will fight you.
• Dack Fayden - Filters cards, the downside of discarding is significantly reduced by Welder and Crucible
• Balance - Read this card.
• Chromatic Lantern - Makes everything easier to cast

There's a lot more to be said but I think the decklist speaks for itself. Feel free to ask questions or tell me my ideas are terrible.

I know this deck isn't going to be the best but I also know that you'll have a hell of a lot of fun.

I am pleased to annouced the first ever Lone Star Lhurgoyf Invitational!

As you may know, for the past few months, the winner of our Vintage tourmanets gets to take home our prize mat. The prize mat is now quite full and we must determine its final owner.

Eight of the most frequent attendees to our Vintage tournaments have been invited for a full round-robin tournament for final bragging rights.

thecrav, why the fuck do I care?

Because every round will be streamed with commentary! Tune in Saturday, July 29th at 12:30 PM Eastern to watch 8 Lhurgoyfs play vintage, bullshit, and get drunker as the tournament goes on.

Check back here next week for all eight decklists and the first few rounds of pairings.

Watchable paper streams

Don't forget this is target permanent so you can also hit lands!

4/10/2022 1PM

Full Proxy Vintage at Asgard Games - 3302 S Shepherd

$10 entry, full payout in store credit, plus an as-of-yet undecided door prize (previous door prizes have been fetch lands)

(No link, this is all the details I have)

Are we calling this Dig Through Affinity or Affinity Through Time?

Houston, TX | 1/9/2022 | Full Proxy Vintage at Asgard Games

(No link, this is all the details I have)

Event link: https://www.facebook.com/events/641501820335762/

Copied from the event:

Welcome to our once a month Full Proxy Vintage tournament! Sling some of the oldest and greatest cards in magic's history without having to spend a house down payment on them! Registration will be done through the MtG Companion App, and fees taken in store.
Masks are required while inside the store.
Entry fee: $10
Prize support: 100% of entry fees back in store credit to the top 4 or top 8 depending on event size
Tournament Structure: 3 Swiss rounds minimum
MtG Companion Code: M28R2M
Proxy rule: No rude, lewd, or crude imagery or text. Final judgement will be up to the TO.

@lamayo said in Paper In-Store Tournaments:

I'm looking for store examples only, no breweries or basements.

Clarification requested:

What do you mean by "store" ?

Lots of stores are in basements. Lots of breweries are also stores that sell beer.

My LGS has been doing paper Vintage but they only post the events on Facebook so I usually don't find out about them until too late

@blindtherapy said in Eternal Weekend 2021:

we can all go on considering the north america one the 'real' bragging rights one.

And, by extension, the European and APAC winners don't get to have bragging rights!

Thanksgiving Weekend.

I swear no one at WotC owns a calendar.

@revengeanceful By me completely forgetting what that card said...

Looks like I was actually playing it in Legacy Ascendancy with Lingering Souls and a cheeky Ancient Grudge

I used to play Quiet Spec for Fatestitcher in Jeskai Ascendancy combo. I miss that deck.