@5space Actually, even that is wrong. Sullivan Brophy was one of the first to popularize the Barbarian Ring tech which he's now moved over to being Cabal Pit (and 1 Ring). It irritates me to no end when players assign credit to deck tech to the latest "high status" player who played with the tech even if they clearly stole that tech from an originator of it. Don't always assume that the only players who use spicy tech are guys like LSV. This actually happened to me with Mike Noble essentially being given full credit for Noble Fish even though I was absolutely 100% the originator of the deck as people in the know will attest to.

-Storm

@thewhitedragon69 except that shops isn't dominating. Forming about 20-30% of top 8s with 20-30% representation is absolutely fine. Sure, at a big event it might take 4/8 slots in a top 8 sometimes, but it averages to a healthy amount. And that's a GOOD thing for Vintage. To have some sort of shops list still being viable is a vital thing for the health of the format.

@smmenen for once, I agree with you Steve (first time for everything haha!). It is a deck that is eminently beatable and preys on the Shops decks that were bordering on too dominant about a year ago. Shops is still a great choice, but it does tend to struggle with PO decks because they now run 4 Hurkly's Recall.

@wfain said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:

@stormanimagus that’s what I’m saying, you can play 10 pieces and land 2 of them, you’ll win. But you’re not going to be good against anything else because the cards that are good against Outcome don’t really help against anyone else (Stony excepted since it is decent against Shops if you have some other relevant cards).

Ummm. . . I respectfully disagree. Spirit of the Lab is a fine card vs. Xerox, and anything else that seeks to draw a bunch of cards. Thalia is great vs. any deck running 4 preordain (of which there are quite a few). Kambal is great vs. decks running removal because he is a meat shield to your other threats. These cards are absolutely FINE vs. other blue lists. And I'd run Kataki in the main for shops + Outcome just for the coup de gras.

@wfain Or you just run a deck with Stony Silence, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia 1.0, AND Kambal and you watch your outcome opponent squirm to get rid of it all :). Then if they somehow find balance you just drop that 2nd Thalia you've been sandbagging the whole game. I have a deck that does exactly this to much success most games.

@chubbyrain said in JULY 2, 2018 BANNED AND RESTRICTED UPDATE:

@wfain Restrictions aren't really based on power level but on an interplay of balance, diversity, and interactivity (counterplay). Gush was in that 30% range where you start to worry about its effects on diversity. PO hasn't really been above 20%, so any potential restriction would need to consider balance and interactivity implications. Your post argues for those interactivity concerns.

To be honest, the real culprit in Vintage for some time has been the delve spells. They "break" free spells while being pretty immune to negative interaction. Combine that with cheap interactive spells so you don't die on turns 1-2 and you have an incredibly powerful and resilient control engine. Sad that in Vintage, cards like these never really get removed from the format.

Agreed 100%. The delve spells combined are a 2-of in almost all blue decks. By the time either of them is "turned on" one will generally have been found. This basically means that, unless you wallop your blue opponent early with some devastating plays, you are going to have to play through a delve spell by like turn 3-5. It's really frustratingly consistent. There are ways to beat it for sure, but it's miserable to know that it is pretty much ALWAYS coming if the game gets to that phase.

@topical_island We probably no longer need to draw 2 + cards a turn haha. Force of Will is still one of the most flexible disruption spells ever printed and is run in blue decks for a reason.

@evouga He dodges Lightning Bolt as well. Very nice.

@nedleeds I've considered running 1 in the past and may still do so but I don't think you could run more than 1 anyway because it doesn't stack and isn't blue. So, at most I'd do a 1/2 split of sylvan and chart. I really have come to like the burst that chart provides, though. I also really like that I'm not nuking my life-total to do so.

@moorebrother1 So you are essentially making it no longer Noble Fish? The deck is Bant. End of story. The reason being that white gives you Stony, Pridemage, Containment Priest, Plow, and, most importantly, Thalia 1.0. Thalia 1.0 + Wasteland + Daze is the reason this build works at all. Containment Priest and Plow, specifically, save you massive amounts of space in covering many matchups at once which decks like this need to compete. The Exalted Mechanic is also highly relevant with True-Name Nemesis vs. decks like Jeskai and Jeskai Superfriends. Also, Spirit of the Labyrinth won't work with Force of Will in this list because I need to be able to draw cards to support Force of Will.

Also, @hierarchnoble, you are running 4 Force of Will and no discernible draw engine. That seems real bad to me. My list is running 3 Chart a Course and 3 Selkie to go with 1 Ancestral, 1 Treasure Cruise. To me, that is the bare minimum draw spells that will actually refill your hand enough to support early Force of Wills. Spyglass + Meddling Mage is cute, but I really don't think this deck can afford that level of slowness to only MAYBE hit a relevant card in hand. Cards like sensei's top can hide important cards on the top of deck, making Meddling Mage far worse. You can theoretically Spyglass a Sensei's Top but I still don't think it's great vs. like PO for example since tutors can help find the solution to mage (namely Balance) and if you name Balance they will just play their POs with impunity. I like that you are running my config of force/daze/misstep, but I also think that the 1 Horizon Canopy is sloppy and that your sideboard is all over the place. 1 Stony isn't going to cut it vs. the mopal lists in my opinion and I also think this deck looks like a sitting duck vs. Jeskai lists.

Those are my thoughts as of now.