As per my previous post, I have a Knight of the Reliquary list that should abuse this card reasonably well cause I'm able to run 1 copy and tutor it up on my opponent's eot and then pump it to 2 counters right away by simply having 2 mana up. On the following turn I can pop it for 2 to wreck a shop player's board in an unrevokerable fashion. Here's the list I've been working on lately that might abuse this:

Bant Humans

Lands (25):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gaea’s Cradle

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
2 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Chalice of the Void

Creatures (20):
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guaridan of Thraben
4 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Odric, Master Tactician

Instants (6):
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorcery (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Containment Priest
2 Nature’s Claim
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
1 Tomik, Distinguished Advokist
1 Explosion Zone
1 Ramunap Excavator
3 Trygon Predator

I plan to abuse the living crap out of this with my Knight of the Reliquary/Lavinia builds. Oh man. . .

-Storm

@evouga said in [WAR] Tomik, Distinguished Advokist:

How much early-Wastelanding is this guy going to stop, though, at the WW price point?

That is a good point. The only reason I mentioned 5-C Humans as a possible application is because that deck doesn't get to run a fetchland manabase and thus suffers from a highly wasteable manabase.

I think this guy is a fantastic role-player, actually. I think he'll find a home in an aggressive 5-C Human deck because that deck HIGHLY values its rainbow lands and cannot really afford to have them wasted early. This guy will prevent that vs. decks like Eldrazi and shops. I see very little issue with running 1x Maindeck and would likely try 1 more in the sb.

@wagner I think this is a significant upgrade from bargain.

1. It can be tinkered
2. The spells are free so you can actually generate a black lotus AND a demonic tutor from a single Dark Petition. That is the key part that I think folks are missing.
3. This card is exceedingly good with topdeck tutors and cards like Ponder, Sensei's Top, Fetches, and Brainstorm.

I think folks are grossly underestimating how much better this card is than Bargain on so many levels.

-Storm

@vaughnbros

How does this cycle itself again?

How are you turning counters back on? Are you bouncing this? Cause if that is what you're thinking, you can't.

This is also a Tinker Target that I think might just trump Memory Jar in a Ritual list.

@ajfirecracker What are your thoughts on The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? I, personally, love this hate card in my Knight of the Reliquary decks and consider it a strong hate card.

Ok, I'll bite. Here's a list I've been messing around with to try and abuse Lavinia:

Bant Humans

Lands (21):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Savannah
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal

Enchantments (3):
3 Stony Silence

Creatures (22):
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guaridan of Thraben
4 Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2 Ramunap Excavator
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

Instants (8):
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorcery (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
3 Containment Priest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ramunap Excavator
2 Runic Armasaur
2 Seeds of Innocence
3 Nature’s Claim
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Gaea’s Cradle

Sideboard is still a work in progress but I like coupling her with Knight of the Reliquary to attempt to lock opponents off of playing spells.

@juice-mane said in [RNA] Cinder Lash:

I'll move the following post to the Lavinia thread if other users find it distracting:
@vaughnbros I'm willing to accept that no new trend is happening if someone has the time to come up with statistics comparing the percentage of asymmetrical 'hate' cards in older sets to that in newer sets.

But I wouldn't say there is selection bias underlying my perception when I can and have looked at the entirety of the more popular sets, both old and new, that are available to view on Scryfall. That's all insignificant semantics though. I get what you mean.

My impression is that, before this perceived trend started taking place, hate cards often (not always) had counterparts or cards that nullified their effects. For example, Tormod's Crypt has Feldon's Cane, Acid Rain has Tsunami, and so on. The point is that these counterpart cards were made consistently enough that you could expect to see answers for newly printed hate cards with good reason.

Considering the previous few sets, would you expect WotC to print a counterpart to Lavinia, that maybe costed UB, that said: "Each opponent can’t cast non-sorcery and non-instant spells with converted mana cost greater than the number of lands that player controls"?

Had they printed a card like Lavinia before this perceived trend started taking place, I think they would've printed a counterpart to Lavinia worded similarly to above. I don't expect to see such a card being printed in current sets, considering the cards they've been printing recently. There would be an 'outrage' on reddit every day.

So, based on those (unsubstantiated) impressions, I find it difficult to believe that WotC hasn't been incentivizing having permanents in play, at the cost of discouraging holding cards in hand. What I perceive as the problem with the newer cards is that the asymmetrical hate cards are backed by an asymmetrical design approach.

Except you totally miss the point of Lavinia if you think your proposed counterpart would do anything other than be relegated to the junk rare binder. Lavinia is good because non-creature based decks are CONSTANTLY trying to cheat on mana with moxen. Creature based decks rarely do this as much and would, thus, probably play right through a piece of garbage card like the one you proposed.