@smmenen Stephen, I had a question for you. Are you SURE you need a Dread Return package? What about running 4 copies of the new card Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis? Just a thought as it pitches to FoV and also exiles to Ichorid in a pinch.

@chubbyrain Yes, but a lot has changed since thorn was restricted. The hate cards for shops as an "aggro-blitz" deck have improved and the metagame has shifted more towards PO than Xerox (at least that is my general understanding of the meta). I also don't partake of the online meta so most of my theory comes from a couple places:

1. My local meta
2. Anecdotal reporting of other local metas from Vintage players I talk to.
3. Tournament reports on TMD.

Based on these 3 things I don't think Thorn of Amethyst would somehow "break" shops again as an archetype because players are already moving away from Overseer Shops in favor of other builds and those other builds wouldn't be able to abuse Thorn quite as much. Just thinking logically here, would a player really want multiple thorns in play when their plan A is to resolve one of 5-7 copies of a Karn Planeswalker?

As to your unsolicited rants comment, I'm truly sorry that I caused you headaches in the past, but it's in the past and I'm trying to discuss the effects a REAL new card might have on the meta and the type of shift it could cause. I have no interest in being lectured at for perceived past indiscretions. I want to move the conversation forward and not reopen that can of worms. Please keep things civil.

@vaughnbros said in [MH1] Force of Vigor:

@stormanimagus

I don’t think Shops needs an unrestriction in the slightest bit.

I think it's pretty clear that thorn would be safe to come off and should never have been restricted in the first place. The other two cards are farrr more unsafe to unrestrict.

I have a very serious question for the community regarding this card. So here goes:

Does anyone think this card as an early answer to artifacts justifies one or ALL of the following unrestrictions?

1. Thorn of Amethyst
2. Chalice of the Void
3. Lodestone Golem

The reason I ask is that I think shops is going to be a hurting archetype very soon (with the existence of the new ouphe + this card + a lot of other tech that has been spoiled) and I think this card helps shore up a fair amount of the turn 1 feel bads that shop can bring forth. Like this is a turn 0 solution to chalice of the void + ravager or chalice of the void + overseer. It's also a turn 2 solution to chalice + sphere on the draw. I always thought the restriction of chalice was mostly the fault of the workshop archetype for abusing the card too much and that chalice being in the format was otherwise a good thing for deck diversity and meaningful choice when it came to deck building. The possible upsides I could see to bringing it back would be:

a. Make Misstep way less of an auto-include in the format because Chalice @1 stops the cannibalizing of 1-drop.

b. Allow more hate decks to run it and open up a resurgence of certain archetypes like Blue Moon.

Now, here are the possible disasters to unrestricting Chalice:

a. Chalice + Lavinia seems probably too busted.
b. Eldrazi could perhaps abuse Chalice too much because of the diversity of card types it runs alongside Ancient Tomb and perhaps we'd be right back in the same coin-flip feel bad situation we were right before it got restricted.

Anyway, just curious to hear people's thoughts.

OMG Forget WG Eldrazi. GWx Humans is where my head is at with this card. Specifically a deck with Lavinia, Thalia 1.0 and Knight of the Reliquary. This card synergizes with mana denial strategies like that so well. Sooo excited!

@craw_advantage Oh, it's enchantment and NOT creature though? Ewwww. . . way less interested.

@blindtherapy

Link me? That card would be dope.

Yeah, this card is just phenomenal. I think it is easily the best card spoiled so far and I intend to build around it with Knight of the Reliquary, DRS, Abrupt Decay and possibly Leovold to keep the green count high. I also think you could run like 1 Sylvan Library and some Tireless Tracker to say nothing of Green Sun's Zenith. OMG, the possibilities for this card are exciting. What utility!

@blindtherapy said in [MH1] Force of Vigor:

@stormanimagus i saw the picture on facebook, i think Travis Compton posted it, not sure where he got it

Can you please link me? It isn't on mtgsalvation at all.

@blindtherapy said in [MH1] Force of Vigor:

@protoaddict white was leaked, it's Swords to Plowshares for 2 mana

what? where is it leaked?