@neo_altoid I would add Jace the Mind Sculptor as a huuuuuge target that this hits and decay does not.

@garbageaggro The exile effect from DRS is also huge vs. dredge and academy rector decks. That is a major reason for splashing green.

@brianpk80 All I am "insinuating" is that I want game balance to be paramount. You should read my whole post and not take one comment out of context. I argued in my post that I like games that are balanced. . . period. If the existence of a card as a 4-of in Vintage causes an unreasonably unbalanced format then I will always entertain it for restriction. You lose all credibility in my mind when you argue for the restriction of cards that clearly aren't an issue in the format because they are in decks that represent 10% or less of the field and 20% or less of top 8s (yes you have argued for the restriction of cabal therapy to me in the past). Phyrexian Revoker and Sphere of Resistance are in a deck that is far more powerful than Dredge and you've called for those cards' restrictions. While that is more defensible I also believe you'd have to have a daisy chain of restrictions to offset the fact that Shops would no longer have a viable mana denial angle whatsoever and would be relegated to the garbage heap of Vintage decks as it struggles to try and turn 3 or turn 4 you with an aggro plan that helplessly flails to any blue strategy even remotely broken, because blue has far better cards to choose from at that point.

Again, I'll say it again. I like board games like Tzolk'in that have incredible attention paid to balance. I want the same for Vintage. I'd like do accomplish this with the most cards playable possible. Your proposals would turn Vintage slowly, but surely, into Commander. That format already exists. I don't want a bastardized version of it as well.

Furthermore, on what earthly grounds do you ban any card in Vintage? That is NOT THE POLICY OF THE DCI ANYMORE. They haven't done it for years and they shouldn't do it again. If they were to ban Cruise and Dig for power level then they'd have to ban Recall, Walk, Lotus, the Moxen etc etc. You are on record saying these cards are "Sacred Cows." According to who? You?! When did you become emperor? Those cards are clearly far more powerful than Cruise and Dig but they are just allowed to live while Cruise and Dig get banned? That makes no sense to me. You see how your arguments begin to sound like proselytizing and not logical arguments backed up by any sort of facts or data?

If we banned Cruise and Dig for power level as 1-ofs we'd probably have to ban axe a bunch more cards on the restricted list and then we are just a bastardized version of Legacy. It's a very very slippery slope man.

@smmenen Though I know we have had our disagreements in the past, I'm 100% in agreement with you Steve. I would like to add one more thing to the conversation that begins with an analogy.

I play board games. . . a lot. The ones that stick with me most are the ones where there are elements of meaningful choice, but there may also be a smattering of randomness. The games that come to mind are games like Tzolk'in, the Mayan Calendar Game, and 7 Wonders as well as something like Pandemic. Wether there is much luck involved or not, I most enjoy games where the game balance is optimized and multiple paths to victory are equally viable. I want Vintage to function the same way. I don't EVER want one strategy to dominate, but I also don't want people to call for the pitchforks if they don't LIKE losing to a given strategy, especially if the reason they lose to that strategy more than their share is because they choose to play one of the decks with the weakest inherent match win % vs. said deck. Game balance is paramount in my list of asks on any game and magic is no exception. I really don't see why that shouldn't be the driving metric by which the DCI creates policy.

My thoughts.

-Storm

@garbageaggro Abrupt Decay can be awkward for the manabase (though that is where DRS is supposed to shine), but I just don't know of any other card that kills a mentor and can't be countered and also takes out annoying "free wins" like Time Vault. It's a highly versatile card that really has saved the day more times than I can count.

@garbageaggro All very good points. I will try to answer them based on my experience. One thing though before that is that I don't think the shop matchup is stellar but I would put it at above 50%.

1. The Ballista Problem - Sure Stony Silence is helpful but generally the Stony Silence is there for Ravager and Steel Overseer. Nabbing Ballista is just gravy. The way you really beat Ballista, I've found, is that you overload it with targets it must answer and hope they don't have a Ravager to give it insane amounts of counters. You do all this very early in the game by having a glut of 2-drops.

2. Why 6 plows matters. You are able to follow up a plow on their foundry inspector with bodys that make the game irritating for shops because they are now slowed by their own spheres. The Snapcaster decks that also run a lot of removal do not "just wreck shops" largely cause they run one of the worst cards in the format vs. spheres as a 4-of in Preordain. My list runs no such nonsense. I run Deathrite Shaman. Deathrite Shaman >>>> Preordain as a 1-drop vs. Shops.

3. This is better than Eldrazi because you have less anti-synergy with Stony Silence (ie you don't play or rely on Sol Ring/Mana Crypt and can survive your own Stony far more readily). You also don't run Sol Lands so this deck weathers a wasteland storm from shops far better than Eldrazi does.

4. In general, the way you beat shops is early tempo advantage. You also bait their ballista out with something like Bob, and then follow up with Kataki to slow them down or even pick off permanents. Also, one card you didn't mention but is actually decent vs. them is Abrupt Decay. It's a removal spell for most things you care about in their deck INCLUDING Sphere. Also, do not forget that Anafenza is a total house vs. shops because it prevents Modular and Hangarback Thopters from happening. The shops matchups is definitely tighter than the other 2 and if I find it too close for comfort I may add some more cheese for it down the road but for now, I'm ok with where it's at.

-Storm

@brianpk80 Brian, I really don't understand your view that dredge is a problem. The deck forms less than 10% of most metagames and, I would imagine, not much more of top 8s. It is a deck that gets frequently slaughtered by Shops (even game 1) and struggles with PO decks. Just because the "fairer" blue decks have an unfavorable matchup v.s Dredge and need to dedicate more hate than other decks do does not make Dredge a deck that requires action taken against it. I think you have a personal "feel bad" set of experiences vs. cards like Cabal Therapy that belong no where near the restricted list. . . EVER. . . PERIOD. Targeting Therapy for restriction is on the same level of ludicrous as when folks wanted to target Dark Petition. It isn't even open for debate.

As to the shops restrictions you suggested, I'd be careful. Shops, as an archetype, is hanging on by a thinner thread than I think people realize. While I would love to see Ballista go I really don't think you can tamper too much with Shops without making it lose to hard to to much of the field. Ballista is a major reason shops beats up on URw Pyromancer/Mentor. Without Ballista they could probably just start running 3-4 Pyromancers and beating shops more readily again. PO I could see restricted. Mainly I say this because chaining POs is many orders of magnitude more broken than playing your FIRST PO. I think PO is on par with Treasure Cruise in a deck designed to abuse it and Treasure Cruise is on the restricted list. I think on precedence alone PO should have gotten the axe a while ago. My thoughts on the restrictions/unrestrictions that should happen going forward are that PO, Mox Opal and Preordain be restricted and Demonic Consultation be unrestricted. That is what I'd do.

-Storm

Hi everyone,

So I've been developing this list for a while and I think I've found a deck that has favorable matchups against Shops, PO, AND URw Snapcaster Mentor Control. I'll try to explain a little bit of WHY I think I can claim this, but first, the list:

"Infernal Justice League" a.k.a Junk Hatebears

Land (20):
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland

Artifact (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

Enchantment (3):
3 Stony Silence

Creature (22):
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty

Instant (9):
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard (15):
4 Containment Priest
1 Archangel of Thune
3 Mayor of Avabruck
1 Rest in Peace
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Stony Silence
3 Infernal Reckoning
1 Swamp

So how can I claim this to be good vs. these 3 decks? Let's break down each matchup.

1. Paradoxical Outcome - Now when I refer to this matchup I am largely referring to the UWB breed that runs Mentor, TV/Key, Blightsteel and Balance. I believe I beat this deck with some regularity because the full moxen to get a turn 1 Stony Silence/Thalia/Spirit of the Labyrinth and I also have 3 Mental Misstep to catch certain annoying openers off guard. If I can make it to turn 2 at parity I feel as though their deck can't keep up with the torrent of hatebears this deck can deliver. 3 Spirit of the Lab and 4 Thalia is rough for a deck built around 4 preordain, 1 Ponder and 4 Paradoxical Outcome. Kambal is often just the icing on the cake and Stony Silence is just miserable for them. Grand Abolisher is also helpful in making sure your key spells resolve and also at not allowing your opponent to maximize their mana with something like EOT Vampiric Tutor. Dark Confidant is just another "inevitability" card they also have to deal with.

2. Shops - This matchup can be a bit tight and is probably the closest of the 3 but 6 plows after game 1 really help a lot. The fact that 3 of them actually gain YOU life can also be clutch if you are trying to stabilize before you die. Like, sometimes you can Infernal Reckoning a Foundry Inspector and have that be just enough life gained to stabilize in time for a devastating Kataki. Also, Kataki + Stony + Wastelands + Mayor is just a great synergistic set of cheap threats. Anafenza and Deathrite Shaman are also helpful in this matchup.

3. URw Snapcaster Mentor Control - This matchup can also be a bit swingy, but I've found that experience in the matchup really helps. This is where some of the most odd-ball cards in the 75 are at their best. Shalai is brutal for them, as is Archangel of Thune and after game 1 you get both. You can easily set a cavern to angel to make sure either or both resolve and if you can land a Kambal, Archangel gets silly in a long game. Aside from the flashy, "over-the-top" cards you also have an excellent way of interact with their early game in Thalia, Spirit, Bob and Mental Misstep. This is also a matchup where Abrupt Decay can be clutch cause it hits Pyromancers and Mentor and is uncounterable. Cavern of Souls is also hugely relevant in this matchup because you need to out-tempo your opponent and deadening the effect of their Force of Wills early can be crucial to victory. Don't fool yourself though, this matchup can be grindy as hell, and if they happen to be on a larger than normal glut of spot removal they might take it down. But. . . . don't assume that any large amount of spot removal is instant death for Junk Hatebears either. Sometimes you can outmaneuver it with tight timing and cards that interact favorably fighting theirs on the stack like Mental Misstep with a Kambal in play, for example. It's a very complex matchup with a lot of micro-interactions that take a while to get the feel for. Don't worry if you struggle at first to beat URw Mentor. The matchup isn't too bad, and I'd argue, favorable even. Also, be sure to side in those Mayors in this matchup. They are relevant here. Mayor protects Kambal from bolt in that it becomes a meat shield for bolt because Kambal is a 3/4 with Mayor in play.

Anyway, I hope this sparks some conversation, and even, perhaps, some civil debate.

-Storm

Joe needs to stop calling "Jeskai Mentor" "UWR Humans." Incorrect naming is annoying.

@13nova When you are also facing 4x Misstep, Fluster, MB Trap, and Snapcaster Mage good luck always being able to BE that patient. Empty is precisely for allowing you to play 8-10 tokens on turn 1 before the hate can come down or a Jace TMS or Dack can put the game out of reach.