@tittliewinks22 I see you are playing Dig even if not Cruise, just can't cast 2 delve spells?
Tendrils does seem sweet but i haven't even a little bit tried it. I'm not sure i know how to Gifts into a pile for Storm, but i did play Paradoxical the last few months.
Sol Ring does seem a great upgrade.
Did you ever try Noxious Revival? I dropped it and it helped me realize it wasn't that good because i started building better piles. Doesn't make me like it less though, heh, so still curious if you had a go with it or not.
@tittliewinks22 What does Manamorphose do in a deck like this? I don't play Modern at all but i see it in UR storm and thought it was only for storm count.
No Treasure Cruise? How are you liking Regrowth?
My build is like yours but i'm tinkering with a few things. I've got the same setup for being able to Gifts into Tinker Time Walk or into Key Vault, but i'm toying with a 5c goodstuff build that also plays Dack/Thief, Leovold, Kess, and Mentor, but it's very busy.
I'm firing up a Vintage league over the month of October locally, allowing proxies. About 7 solid so far up to maybe 12 depending on the next few days. We might do round robin, which sounds like a ton of matches, but this actually allows us to play at leisure over the month; each participant meets with each other whenever they can arrange that between the 2 of them, which isn't so hard given nearly every player is a regular attendee at one or more weekly events at our most popular local store.
@tittliewinks22 Yes, duh. I missed that. For sure, +3 Yawg cards to play with, unlike Snap which, if it stays in play, cannot be used to flash something back a second time. Thanks for reminding me, i will definitely be picking up a copy.
Have you been playing Snap at all? How many copies each?
And if you have a list, i would love to see it.
I do just love the idea because i want to brew a 5c dreamcrusher goodstuff deck that wins with huge card advantage.
If you are very high on the mana rocks maybe even Paradoxical Outcome base for drawing or Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain because a 3/3 is also good sometimes. Do we need Sai, Master Thopterist if we are playing white for...
I don't know, is Leovold, Emissary of Trest good enough for contention since it poop poops on cantrips, PO, and similar to Thief destroys someone's hand with Twister?
Speaking of big mana, i am really itching to play Mind Twist which has potential to randomly blow someone out of the game.
Really itching for Kolaghan's Command to be a big thing. Last year i wasn't going to paly with in my 4c Leovold + Kess, Dissident Archmage deck, but once Thorn of Amethyst was restricted i changed my mind and it was a blast. I didn't always like it but hey.
Can you play Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time if you aren't playing fetches? No one is saying we can't play a bunch of cantrips necesarily, but if we aren't playing the delve spells (or Gush) then i suppose Dark Confidant can be a thing?
If we build for slow grindy control games, maybe we play Burning Wish, which is not only a means of putting stuff like Tendrils in the side but also a great way to access a sideboard of toolbox haymakers like By Force, Balance, Thoughtseize.
Sort of sidetracked from the topic of mana base
I'd recommend you going further into these control decks, as I don't think Gifts outshines PO in combo builds, but very well does put up some real value.
As for Intuition, I'd probably go for Ancestral Knowlegde.
Yea, i am into control and value more than build-a-bear workshop. I have been playing Paradoxical Oath with Grisels for a while.
Color me stupid, but what on earth is the interaction between Intuition and Ancestral Knowledge?
Been toying with gifts builds myself recently. Especially with the new Guilds of zravnica card Mission Briefing.
There are things to like about Briefing over Snapcaster, but for what Vintage-related purpose do you prefer to surveil? This isn't a format of Surgicals and Deathrites (and nor is Legacy on the latter anymore) so i wouldn't think the self mill is helpful? If anything, technically Mission briefing gets hit by one more sphere effect.
just wanted to mention that Intuition for 3x Creeping Chill is probably the best burn spell ever printed, with the possible exception of Price of Progress
Well that's hilarious. But then you have to play a card that's bad to draw. Some kind of Dredge/Loam/Intuition deck? A Lands deck that plays a burn spell??
I've put some work into Gifts a handful of times over the past few years. I never found a list that worked for me, but I'll throw out some of my thoughts on the card, which might be useful to you
Definitely! Thanks for some good thoughts here.
Right, i don't think you do that. I think you build a different pile or only search up one of Vault Key, but on the other hand i suppose if you search one your opponent just presumes you have the other? Big risk in trying to a call a bluff there.
Also, i know you don't like Noxious (which i write about more below), but you can use Noxious in that pile if you don't need your draw step and it costs 1 less mana. Gifts is insane because you go +1 card but even with Noxious putting your target on top instead of in your hand (like Vamp bs Demonic) still just makes Gifts card neutral.
Regarding recoup, isn't this card only flexible in Tinker/Time Walk/Will based kill piles? It doesn't seem like a good card in any other case, because it cannot get you back other card types and it's painfully slow to recoup on value based piles that don't effectively win?
- If you're casting Gifts at the end of your opponent's turn, which is fairly common, you can take advantage of your draw step and get topdeck tutors, which makes things cheaper. Vampiric Tutor+Mystical Tutor+Demonic Tutor+X is an old standby. X could be Voltaic Key in a deck that runs 2 Keys, or just a Black Lotus or Time Walk to set up a gigantic Yawgmoth's Will
The Eot Gifts is why i really like Noxious for a combo win. The fact that it's an instant allows you to cast it before your draw step, like vampiric, but unlike vampiric is free to cast. You cast Noxious targeting one of the cards you would want with Vampiric, no? Vampiric just saves you from graveyard removal like Trap and Crypt?
In your example above, what if you are given Voltaic Key and Mystical? Mystical cannot find Vault and it cannot find DT if you already put it in your grave. You could Mystical with key in hand for Yawgmoth's, and then Yawg your DT into a Key, but builds like this are also possible with Noxious.
I'm not specifically saying this is good or not but as an example what about 1 of Key/Vault, Demonic, Vampiric, Noxious
- Jace, Vryn's Prodigy was particularly interesting to me, with its mana-free recursion. With a JVP in play, you gifts for Dark Ritual+Cabal Ritual+Demonic Tutor+Dark Petition and kill for only 1 mana post-gifts, with no specific requirements about what cards you've drawn already besides having threshold for Cabal Rit, which isn't super hard to have after you've resolved Gifts and activated JVP. (it's a complicated kill, but it works)
What do you grab with the tutor? If your opponent gives you the mana spells, Jace still only allows you to cast one tutor from the yard. This pile does depend on what's in your hand if i'm not mistaken?
- People who didn't play Gifts years ago pretty universally look at old lists and replace the Recoup with something cheaper, like Noxious Revival. I think largely people are missing the benefit of the recursion spell itself having flashback. To find a specific card with Revival, your gifts needs to include that target card, and Revival, and a second recursion spell like Snapcaster Mage, leaving you one slot to play with. Because Recoup works from the yard, you only need to get the target card and Recoup, which frees up a second slot that could be used for anything. When you're setting up a Yawgmoth's Will turn, that extra card can be huge. Recoup costs 2 more mana than Snapcaster Mage, and 4 more than Noxious Revival, but if it lets you put a Black Lotus in the pile, you're getting 6 extra mana on your Will turn. All of that said, I still think it's reasonable for a Gifts deck built today to just run 4 Snapcasters maindeck and plan on drawing one naturally rather than putting them in a Gifts pile, and skip the Recoup entirely ... but I'm not personally a fan of Noxious Revival.
I think the flashback is awesome, but are we planning on the idea Recoup will be put into our hand? I feel like with powerful spells recoup goes to the yard so we can't use it twice. Keep in mind the spells in the yard won't only be Gifts resolving but also the natural course of the game, so any number of things could be in there. I do get the value of putting Recoup into the yard, because then we get 2 cards to hand plus we can recoup a 3rd, which is way different than just getting 2 spells. The flashback is everything vs another recursion spell.
Is the loss in flexibility worth it? Doesn't it more or less put you into certain types of piles which makes you build your deck a little differently?
I'm not sold that Noxious is infallible or eminently playable, but i'm also not sold Recoup would be totally playable at this point. Also, i fully admit i'm not 100% understanding everything you disagree with about Noxious, it is easy for me to get lost in longform conversation and analysis.
- Ultimately I've found Gifts decks to just be too weak against modern tempo blue decks. Flusterstorm, in particular, is a real problem. I haven't seriously explored the archetype since the Thorn of Amethyst restriction though, which could possibly free up some space for addressing blue decks.
Yes, that's the real issue. I think in the grand scheme of things it's better to just play more cantrips and counters or PO or such.
Thorn restriction is also something that made me come back to this. I really wanted to play Gifts at Eternal Weekend last year but i ended up not doing so because of Shops. With it's restriction i thought about it again but i couldn't commit to as much playtesting as i wanted so i backed out.
What's your take on Intuition just being a value card? It does work quite a bit differently than Gifts but it just also seems like a flexible insane card in a Snapcaster build or anything that can win with Yawgmoth's.
Did you happen to play or even test Gifts with Kess in your deck you played at EW last year?
I can't believe I forgot to write the thing that made me post in the first place!
Gifts is way better here than you thought. With Gifts Ungiven you don't have to find four cards. Because there's a condition (they have to be unique, and you could have a deck of 60 Relentless Rats) you have the option of "failing to find" on any number of of the cards you get. That means, instead of getting Fatty/Rites/Shallow Grave/Looting ... you can search for just Fatty+Unburial Rites. When you find two cards, both just go straight to the graveyard.
Good catch! 100% forgot. I haven't played with Gifts in a while.
@apollogod said in Gifts and Intuition Piles.:
My favorite Gifts pile is one I currently use in my Acadmey Rector deck. I run 2 Gifts maindeck. This pile requires omniscience in play:
Gifts, Emrakul, Demonic, X (usually a value card of some sort.)
Omniscience makes it all free. If they don’t give you Emrakul, you can just find it again because it will go to GY and be re-shuffled.
The loop can go forever because if they give you Gifts and X, the other Gifts (the one you just cast) is re-shuffled with Emrakul, and you can just repeat the same pile again.
God damn this sounds fun. What's your Rector deck list?
Is this deterministic though? They choose to never give you DT or Emrakul and don't you just run out of cards to pull from your deck?
I guess you just eventually get some other ways to win since you can put as many cards into your hand as your opponent is willing to give you.
If you specifically want to avoid fetches and duals, doesn't your base start with Confluence?
Creature decks have Thran Quarry and Ancient Ziggurat. Artifact decks get Glimmervoid and Spire of Industry. Balls to the wall combo decks get City of Brass and Gemstone Mine. Oath gets Forbidden Orchard. Splashing rare colors (dredge) gets Mine and Confluence. If wanted to be a crazy person you could play Tarnished Citadel.
I played Paradoxical Oath for a while and the base was 2 Confluence 4 Gemstone Mine 2 Glimmervoid 2 Spire of Industry 4 Forbiddden Orchard.
I have been giving some thought to a 5c Keeper/SUpremacy style deck with less emphasis on Tendrils, it's what i am working on right now. I was thinking of playing fetches/duals base since it's so UR/b at the core. Some duals fetches moxes and then 4 Confluence? There are problems with Spire of Industry and Glimmervoid but i suppose they are in contention for my deck as well because the life loss could be a liability.
I'm taking a serious interest in playing a Gifts Ungiven deck, or at least a deck featuring GIfts Ungiven and/or Intution.
I believe Gifts is clearly on the verge of being a powerhouse, and i am familiar it does the do in Drain Tendrils and SUpremacy (also some builds of keeper? Similar decks) and it's appearance in a form of control notable for playing Gifts.
I haven't played Gifts in an actual match but built some homebrew control stuff and sometimes play Gifts for Time Walk and some combination of Yawg, Snap, Noxious, Kess. It's a real awful card to goldfish, fyi
I think one very basic Gifts pile-building philosophy could be "2 card combo, 2 recursion", but while powerful, i don't think the hoops you jump through is more powerful than just playing Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, Tinker, et al. Gifts for your 2 card combo (KeyVault) in a format with Yawg Will does seem totally playable, though.
Let's go over some things i thought of though:
-- There's also the 'draw cards' kind of pile where you fetch out Cruise, Dig, Ancestral, and (Noxious, Jace, Dack, Gush). In this case you can read if your opponent has Misstep because they will give you Ancestral, and if you are given the Delve spells your discarded ones count for +2 mana (along with gifts for -3 total cost next turn).
-- A counterspell pile could be Force, Misstep, Drain, Pyro (although in response to your opponents game winner you might not resolve it or receive Force, so it could also be bait or looking for additional blue stuff).
-- A finisher pile could be the likes of Tinker and Jace, half of the Key Vault combo (if you have the other in hand/play, you don't want to search both without recursion or you end up with a useless card), Mentor if playing white, Time Walk if you have some power on the board.
-- Of course in a storm build there is Lotus, Mana Vault, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual when you need the money for Bargain or such.
-- What about removal? You could build a pile of removal spells and the flashback on Ancient Grudge basically means you are getting 3 spells.
-- It could also just be value, even if a little aimless. How about Jace, Ancestral, Force, another Gifts?
-- What if you don't want to win but just grind for 20 turns? Strip Mine, Life from the Loam, Engineered Explosives, Academy Ruins. Loam/Horizon Canopy/Tranquil Thicket/Cephalid Coliseum???
-- Fringiest unlikely scenario, maybe you're facing Leyline of the Void (2CM??) and really need a certain card you can't afford to lose to exile and you search up tutors as a workaround?
-- Speaking of Leyline, you sure don't want to face down the graveyard hate present in sideboards by playing Reanimator when Oath is better and safer, but what about a Gifts pile for reanimation and fatties? Griselbrand, Unburial Rites, Shallow Grave, Faithless Loothing??
Is there anything cute or extra special i could build with Gifts piles? I'm super open to any discussion, whether it be for storm and other combos, control builds, or just value. I always love new ideas, even if experimental. This card is just riiiiight on the edge of bonkers, and the fact that you go +1 card up and can find another Gifts is terribly fun.
TL;DR for Intuition: Generally far less powerful and interesting, but also in some ways more flexible due to finding cards of the same name and costing 1 less.
Intution is the og multitutor and certainly the grandfather of Gits's design. This card can find cards of the same name, which is isn't often useful (especially in Vintage with the massive restricted list) as searching different names, but it does add a degree of flexibility in a way. With Intuition, you don't have to jump through hoops to Regrowth the card you truly wanted if you have 3 copies. This matters more in Legacy, i think though, where you may want to cast it as Demonic Tutor (see: Show and Tell x3) or card + 2x recursion.
Life goals, it's kind of a dream of mine to search up 3x Ancient Grudge.
What the most interesting, cute, or powerful pile you could do with Intuition?
More importantly, is anything you can do with it good enough to think about playing it with GIfts, or do you just play more Gifts and never Intuition?
Did you ever test lightning bolt in your list? It was better than acceptable as removal to me, and i played 2. It's fine winning with the Pyro, Kess, or Chandra in a control deck but i also found myself in a few games where i untapped with Kess and 'bolted' the opponent for 9.
Did you have any really backbreaking insane or unusual plays with Kess's ability? I had some really fun ones but i don't want to humble brag on your post. I just love Kess, heh.
I'm not sure I follow this bit. You can't use Kess on your oppoent's turn, so if you tap out with a have a Force/Misstep in your yard, your opponent can safely wait until their own turn to play removal or something threatening.
This is true, it's not strictly 'safe', i should say 'more safe'.
Making them wait is a decent tempo play and even if you have 5 to leave one for Fluster, having a free counter in the yard when you anticipate removal is fine. It is not as great as envision in practice i bet.