@Brass-Man If we only posted threads about cards that met that criteria this board would be vacant of posts save for people congratulating people for tourney wins and talking about when the 37th revision of the Gush book is coming out.
I think there is a line, but most threads are not devoid of content, its not like people are posting draft filler here, and most people can look at a card without play test and at least understand from heuristic metrics if it is worth discussion, not necessarily if it will or won't see play.
I don't think the point of this thread was ever to really dissect what is good or bad in the Standard meta but rather to speak about how mistakes in that format have long reaching effects on non rotating formats and the overall health of the game.
Most of this thread boils down to this: Any mistake in standard, be it actual or perceived, will have a negative result on vintage.
For the most part I think that is correct.
Does anyone seriously disagree that the Pillars of 98 are really critical to what makes Vintage Vintage instead of Powered Legacy?
I do. Being powered alone to me is enough of a change from the legacy meta that it validates the formats existence. But to be realistic, there are more than just power cards in the format that change the contours of it from legacy.
Actual Power - Moxen, Lotus, timewalk, timetwister, recall
Restricted cards not in legacy that enable prominent strategies in vintage - Demonic tutor, Fastbond, Vampric tutor / Imp seal, Yawgs will, Wheel of fortune/Windfall, Academy, Sol ring, library of Alexandriam, even more.
Cards that are super powerful that are allowed without restriction in vintage - Shops, Bazaar, Survival of the Fittest, Misstep, etc
I contend that the presence of power alone is enough to define the format and are really the only pillars it could have to still be a unique format, but it goes far beyond that. The very presence of any one of some of these restricted cards is enough to enable some lists and disable others that would have otherwise been lists in vintage. it would not be different if you only had 1 shops instead of 4, the formats would still be unique and play out very differently.
I mean, case and point, I think that mono red burn is a tier one list in legacy because of its speed, yet in vintage where you can make it even faster because of lotus and mox ruby its not even a list because the power alone changes the scope of the entire format.
Especially with Traxos just having come out, being able to ramp up counters and toss them on a massive trampler seems insane
I find some unstated irony in the fact that you have issue with Ravager putting counters on Traxos but not the land that lets you play Traxos consistently ahead of schedule.
I disagree with ravager.
1 - I cannot tell you how many times I had heard the following from people on these boards: "Workshops may need to be restricted, but lets restrict Lodestone and see what happens".... "well, workshops is still too powerful, Workshops may need to be banned but lets add Thorn to the list" .... "well workshops is still too strong but lets add ravager to the list and see what happens."
At what point do we stop moving the goalposts for this one card? I've said it before and I think I'll say it again, I don't think there is any other non restricted card in the format that has caused as many restrictions as Workshops.
2 - Ravager has answers that workshops does not. Stifle is actually a powerfully demoralizing play against the modular trigger. The issue there becomes that stifle sees no play because of Mental misstep right now and is something the workshops deck can handle because of sphere effects which are powered out but, you guessed it, workshops.
At the end of the day I just don't see ravager being that big of a deal. The deck was strong before anyone used ravager and the decks it faced were very similar to what the field looks like now.
I'm ok with fastbond in the abstract, less so because your justification for it includes the prominence of Mental misstep. If MM gets to the point where it needs to go (as some very openly speculate it will) then I suspect Fastbond would have to go as well.
I happen to think this is fantastic even if it likely does not have a home.
Giving red access to dredge in modern is scary, and the fact that this can help them get out from under a Narset or something by dredging is pretty cool. Card is strong but in Vintage I'll guess not stronger than ancient grudge.
This feels really winmore to me. 4 mana do nothing on its own enchantments do not have any track record to speak of in the format, I actually can't think of any other card in the format right now that does nothing on its own, to the point where I think this is actively bad.
Then, assuming you land it and it's not blown out from a 1 mana counter, you need to resolve another spell, best case scenarios is you resolve Ancestral and draw 6, but you only net 4 cards on the first exchange and you have spent 5 mana, 4 at sorcery speed. A 5 mana voltron to make a slightly better Tidings does not ring out as a winning strategy.
I actually think this card is bad also because it takes up a slot that could have just been a draw spell. Draw spells tend to lead into other draw spells and resolving ancestral into treasure cruise or Ancestral into Snapcaster seems way more reasonable and mana efficient to me than this.
There is a very real possibility that LSG was banned for aesthetic purposes more so than any other factor. Vintage is now being covered in streams and videos and WOTC wants the format to feel more like the other formats when it comes to that. Because WOTC can make money off of streams for vintage, more so than selling cards they cannot reprint.
Regardless of if LSG was balanced or not, some games against a turn 1 lodestone last 5 turns of one player attacking and casting rocks and another player saying land go. Even if these are perfectly acceptable situations for a balanced vintage for the players that happens an acceptable percentage of the time, they give the perception of turn one wins with no interaction to a viewer.
WOTC does not want to stream games that look both boring and like a blow out, they want games that have both players playing over powered cards at each other on camera that make for good TV. They banned second sunrise in modern for this exact reason.
So eldrazi decks looking to splash basics for colored mana (or wastes for bloodmoon) and anything using crucible just found a new best friend. This seems to me like it could be a real player, as the cycling is uncounterable outside of stifle and it feeds delve mechanics. I will certainly be picking up 4 copies of this card, I think people really should be on the look out.
I will never fail to be amazed by people defending Mishras Workshop as some sort of untouchable format pillar and instead just trying to restrict everything around it.
I cannot name another card in vintage that remains unrestricted that has caused so many restrictions because of its legality. One could make the argument that Trinisphere, Thorn, Lodestone, and to some extent Chalice are all on the list either entirely or in part because of the power of workshops. Maybe even Mana crypt. Thorn and Lodestone are mostly innocuous enough in any non shops deck, if they see play at all. Now we are discussing getting rid of Ravager or Inspector, 2 cards that are utterly unimpressive on their own. Ravager has been in the format for how many years without any real presence, and how good would it be without fast mana to ramp it out along with it's pals. Like you say in your article it is a card with inherit risks associated with it. Inspector has the potential for crazy plays, but only if it hits the table early via consistent early game mana, and only one land in the list has the consistency to do that by itself. Even the example given in the article of a stifling turn one play of shops, inspector, sol ring, Sphere cannot happen without shops, any other configuration requires 1 additional card to generate enough mana or lotus, which is as we all know, restricted and cannot be used on subsequent turns to finish off your opponent like shops can.
How many cards on that list are there because of solely because of Bazaar? Or Oath? Standstill? I guess you could make the argument that Brainstorm and Ponder are there because of Force of Will maybe? Library because Island is legal?
That being said I don't disagree about the blue arms race, and perhaps Misstep does need to go, but I contend it may be because of factors other than balancing shops.
I would be curious to know how many of the games you played did not have you land a turn one shops or lotus, or a shops at all, and what the win rate on those matches were.
This card, in theory, should stop all the whining about our favorite repeatable lotus land and its call for restriction. . . But it won’t. Mark my words. facepalm.
If your theory was correct then lotus and the moxen should be well contained enough to be off the restricted list because null rod stops them so well.
Making their way around reddit. One really caught my eye is the land.
When Zhalfiran Void enters the battlefield, Scry 1.
t: Add C
That actually seems like it could be playable since it has no CITP clause. Free scry seems very powerful if you can utilize colorless mana. I'm not sure shops has any slots but if workshops ever got restricted and the mana base became lower to the ground it could be good.
This is a strange one to even talk about in the context of vintage but I cannot help but think there is something here. The ability is staggeringly powerful in the right build, and I think that build is oath.
She can replay things like Lotus or LED, Creatures that sac for effects, enchantments, fetch lands, and walkers every turn. I feel as if with the number of cards you may have just milled from oath there are piles you can construct where you just win on the spot. Key vault comes to mind, but also she can play snapcasters from discard to replay timewalks and recalls.
Additionally she is cheap enough to be hard cast and she is in all the right colors. I don't see it yet myself but I have to believe this could be an oath archetype onto itself at some point. Thoughts?
@protoaddct if you want the picture to be more whole, you must also take in account the fact that blue and shop decks have a very different average casting cost.
Statistics could be done about all this (mana available in opening hands, ...) It would be tedious computation and i am not really sure what is the point to this comparaison.
I mean, in a sense that is exactly what we are arguing right? If Workshops merits being on the restricted list then there will be some level of statistical analysis and data to back up the decision right? At least that much is expected, as opposed to Aarons casual dismissal of metrics and generalization about the card being a pillar which cannot be touched.
That being said, this leads us down this path of some people demanding proof far beyond the burden we are equipped to give with our analytical tools or data access. We simply do not have the computational power to look at every possible opening hand, every mulligan, and every iteration of the deck and sideboard to determine if the deck mathematically hits some threshold of "better opening hands" than another list. So instead we rely on heuristics, such as things like how many multimana sources do we have, etc.
I also am not particularly fond of the heuristic of average CMC in these contexts. You are never paying "average mana" in the game, only full costs. Land counts being different affect this number, and it does not factor in color requirements, which once again shops does not suffer from at all (but other decks do). Mana reduction costs also need to factor in, be it from forces of will or mental misstep or foundry inspector, which then has interactions with spheres that you have to calculate as well. Paying for your cards is an all or nothing proposition in game (usually) so either you have it or you don't. I am not saying it is a useless metric, but it is a small factor.
What we do know is this. If there was a blue land that tapped for 3 blue mana that could only be spent on instants or sorceries we would not be having this conversation right? Even though that land is arguably more restricted in what it can pay for than even shops. If that land tapped for only 2 blue mana. Or 1 blue and 1 colorless, do we have any expectation that it would not have been restricted already? Hell if that land was 2 white mana that could only be spent on creatures it would be restricted. I think a strong case could even be made for a land that tapped for w1 that could only be spent on enchantments might actually be too much.
Edit: Typos, I should stop posting from the phone.
If the card is busted enough to merit fighting to drop it turn one, there are other normally suboptimal cards that could see play to enable it.
Not saying they will, just saying that you may need to broaden your horizions a bit.
I'm also starting to think that all these hatebears with abilities that already protect themselves may be well serviced by players running blossiming defense / vines of vastwood to cut off the few other avenues players have to take them off the board.