Played my first league game last night with storm outcome bargain. Great fun to be able to pay just one match. Insane games first game op "turn 1"s off time walk then takes all the turns.
Game 2 results in crazy top deck war. I tendrils with storm count 9 on turn 1 and one copy gets forced, leaving op unable to crack a fetch and with no other mana sources (tolarian in play but no artifacts). I meanwhile have robot as my only win condition having exiled tendrils... I've no timewalk and having seen Dack game 1 terrified of having robot stolen. Eventually find a safe line.
Game 3 op tinkered turn 2.... For trinisphere...I was not expecting that. Needless to say I can't combo off before Tezz ultimate seals the deal.
Thanks @The-Atog-Lord for a thought provoking piece.
The thing that struck me most was what @chubbyrain said:
I would also argue that Gush really isn't weakened relative to the field. It still has incredible synergy with Dack Fayden, JVP, the delve spells, JTMS, Mentor, Pyromancer, Managorger Hydra, Nahiri, etc... You still end up with virtually all Blue decks adopting the same Gush Engine, just with other ways of extracting value from the card rather than a tiny manabase.
The current state of Vintage reminds of a variant my uncle and I used to play similar to today's Canadian Highlander where each card had a point value. Unlike Canadian Highlander you could play multiples - even Type 1 restricted cards - provided the overall number of points was within the limit.
As time went and more cards were printed it became impossible to keep the power level of two card combos in check without assigning absurd point values to cards which in isolation did nothing (e.g. Illusions and/or Donate). This meant they couldn't be used in other decks either. The fix was to eventually assign points to two card combos, but it was the beginning of the end of what had been an enjoyable format until then, and I'm determined to give Canadian Highlander a try at some point.
Now in Vintage there is no cap on the number of restricted cards you can have in your deck (as long as you only have one of each ). As long as Wizards continue to print cards that have synergy with the other cards in the Tier 1 decks particularly TX/Shops they will push the power level of these decks up.
I believe @Smmenen when he says that gush was not a problem pre-Khans. But I think the genie is now out of the bottle. And while it would be nice to restrict pairs of cards (i.e. you can play with only one copy of A & B (X)OR 4 copies of A X(OR) 4 copies of B) that would be simply be a different format that isn't Vintage.
Eventually synergy becomes "too good" (and I accept some people such as @brianpk80 describe this in a qualitative way and others want to see quantitative hard data based on tournament results to assess this). But if Wizard's agree something needs to be done the only tool which they have available is to restrict one of the cards that fuels the engine (or the win con).
Unless Wizard's stop printing cards that fuel these engines it seems there is only one place Vintage will end up - an endless string of restrictions. Sadly I don't see this increasing diversity if a deck of singletons is still Tier 1. Though since you'll be playing quasi-highlander maybe gameplay will be a bit more diverse and people will complain less.
Hi I'm Patrick van Beek - pvanbeek online I play evenings in Europe (EST+5). I play most decks except hatebears
Thanks to the banning of troll in modern I now play dredge too. Just need a reprint of cavern (of souls) in MM3 and I'll be in my way to hatebears too
2.2 Tournaments and Events.
(iii) Collusion A player or players working together to gain an unfair competitive advantage in an event. An example of collusion includes sharing knowledge of draft picks with other players of an event during the drafting portion of that event.
To me for this to apply
a) players need to be playing in the same event,
b) the advantage gained would need to be unfair
Personally I interpret this as, streaming/advice from chat completely fine as long as it's not coming from another player in the tournament
The grey area is when it's other players in the same tournament who have access to information not available to anyone else.
Scouting in paper tournaments is a bad analogy as anyone with a bit of time can do it. Whereas in a Modo event as far as I know the only way to know for sure what deck someone is on (before you've played them) is for them to tell you themselves or someone else to have faced them in a prior round and then pass that information on.
But even then who is to say that the advantage gained is unfair? It's an edge and very difficult to say how such edges add up.
I also completely buy that you could do this outside of a stream it and would be undetectable.
And it would be the wrong outcome if someone was sanctioned for collusion as a result of something someone sat beside them said or was posted in the chat that was caught on stream. This would discourage an activity that is of great benefit and service to the community.
So I've reconciled myself that while my opponents may have an edge (streaming, teaming or otherwise) it didn't detract from me having fun - which is the main reason I play.
I for one would prefer if players stream . Having read this thread I think most of my pre-conceptions were wrong - I thought having the chat on your side gives you some edges. However much of the information that might by provided by the chat can be looked up and if you are so inclined you could set up a bot to look up the information to save time .
The one possible exception (and maybe I'm also wrong on this) is the innocuous what is my opponent on? Yes you can look up what they've played in recent tournament, but if someone in chat knows what your opponent is actually on as they faced them in a previous round this can hugely influence mulligan, turn 1 play. Is there anyway of finding our what your opponent is on - can you review previous rounds while the tournament is underway?
Probe has a downside in multiples in your opening hand as it makes mulligan decisions more difficult. I tend to play 2 or 3 except when playing combo. How much is the prevalence of a card in winning/top8 decklists a factor in whether a card should be restricted - clearly this was the case for cruise and dig. Does anyone have comparable stats for probe?
I was for outcome being restricted at first but having read Rich's post and watched him on steam take down the P9 with a meta-gamed deck (though ironic not having to face PO) I think there are sufficient metagame answers.
I blow hot and cold on mentor depending on whether my inner Timmy, Spike or Johnny is most prevalent.
Timmy - oh look I can create lots of monks AND they grow bigger too.
Spike - I only really need a few of these and that's my primary win con sorted
Johnny- this card reduces space for deck design as it's very hard to fight against the mentor and the token it leaves behind. I then don't play it as I think it's boring and have gone as far as wondering whether the meta would be more interesting with it restricted
I think over the period since mentor was printed I've gone Timmy - Johnny - Spike
So I'm not in the restriction camp on mentor at present, but could easily see myself change my mind in future - Spoiler Alert- particularly after Week 1 of VSL S6
I'm glad to have Misstep in the format for one reason and that is if my opponent draws ancestral and I don't. But clearly another card whose existence narrows deck building options.
@Smmenen Restricting preordain I think would be interesting. It takes away the ability to cheat on mana base and makes blue decks slightly less consistent. This might open up some deck design space. It's probably showing up frequently enough in winning decks to justify consideration. On the other hand it's a card that rewards skillful play.
But having said all that I voted for no change and having read this thread I would still vote for no change.
@ajfirecracker I noticed the force on the gush too. One of the things that makes vintage such a high variance format is then even when you make a poor play (lowers chance of winning vs a different line) sometimes you get rewarded. Its taken me along time to appreciate these subtleties - the good Dr Shay's streams are very helpful in this regard as he often explains what can go wrong taking a particular line.
@ChubbyRain said in Paradoxical Outcome vs Mind's Desire:
If you are playing in the "tournament practice room" on MTGO, that ends up being a very skewed metagame as I feel it's far more casual than the name implies. People with the cards want to do broken things with zero risk (or little risk if you are playing in the 2-man queues). That hasn't translated into performance in Dailies or Paper metagames, where the entry fee entices people to play "better" or at least more consistent decks.
I think part of the issue is that there are very few casual vintage games firing in the "just for fun room" so people who want to play vintage on MODO but aren't necessarily paying competitive decks gravitate to the tournament practice room. Meta extraordinarily skewed. Though turn 1 Goyf, T2 blood braid elf into timewalk (off moxen)-made me smile.
I built a very similar list based on what I saw Reid playing. Deck is really strongly and consistently turn 1s, brings a big goofy smile to my face every time. Great not to have to set up Yawgmoth's Will to win. Even if your first attempt to go off gets countered you have late game against blue.
You keep drawing threats that must be counted and eventually your opponent runs out of cards, one resolves and you win. If I expected a lot of blue would be tempted to play one defense grid main, it can always be tinkered/tutored for in a pinch if there is a spell you have to resolve.
Chain is great, I've generated enough storm count to win with chain plus tendrils a bunch of mana rocks and three land in play.
Seriously though. I played in Type I back in the day, when Strip Mine was unrestricted and it was dumb. And I've played countless games of Old School with unrestricted Strip Mine, and with pretty regular frequency it leads to games where one player is blown out by 2+ Strip effects. ... But it destroys fun, and creates blow outs that are the opposite of interactive.
I can relate to this. I played in the unofficial old school at the MKM London with a deck that was competitive back in the day (but ran 4 strip mines then). I lost count of the games I lost to this deck, many of them to the double strip. But in today's (UK) old school meta with restricted strip and 6th edition rules mishra just shuts agro/wennie down. Tournament report and some more musing about the power of the factory posted in the UK old school Facebook group.
I don't have Wi-Fi at the moment so don't have the bandwidth for twitch. Once I get back on grid I'll post the link. In the meantime this post will take you to some time in the semis... So if you wind back from there you s should be able to find it.
(Reposting from the thread with link to coverage) check out game one of the quarter finals, oath vs white Eldrazi. Commenters pretty much wrote it off on seeing the emrakul on the board but one of the most entertaining oath matches since the VSL in which Dave Williams managed to come back after Rich drew 14
The first round of Top 8 is amazing. Cuts from Commentators to game to find Emrakul already in play. Needless to say comments that it's Vintage and the game is over before the coverage started are unfounded. I'll try to post link to the point in the stream archive.