Trying to resurrect an old thread.

I'm not at all surprised to see that most of you guys have been playing for ~20 years. I'm from the other end of the spectrum.

Five years ago, my son and I took up Magic after yet another game that we had been playing went belly-up. I said at the time that I really did not want to get into competitive Magic "because it's a real money-sink." Little did I know!

Anyway, we bought some cards, including a couple of bulk 1,000 card boxes at GenCon in 2012. After some dinking around, we went to the RTR prerelease a couple of months later and then tried to make some progress in Standard. After a while we started not doing too horribly. We also started to branch out into other formats like Modern and EDH/Commander. The following year in Standard, we quickly got tired of playing against nothing but Mono-Black Devotion and moved on to playing Commander almost exclusively.

My son tends to prefer playing a control style, so Modern, with its emphasis on fast games minimizing interaction, holds nearly zero attraction for him and frankly, although I like to try to mix up my deck styles, I agree that I'm playing a game -- for fun -- and for me, interaction is one of the essential ingredients in a game. I'll still play Modern occasionally, generally with a budget deck since I don't really like Modern tournaments either.

About 6 months ago, one of the local game stores we have been known to frequent decided to start holding monthly proxy vintage events. We had never tried Vintage because it seemed completely unaffordable, but if we could use 100% proxies, we thought we could try the format without committing our entire lives to buying cards. We started reading online articles. IslandSwamp on mtggoldfish.com turned into a regular read from having been just a columnist that we were vaguely aware of but whom we didn't really read because it seemed silly. We started downloading decklists. We printed up a number of "decks" using mtgpress.net/ and sleeving up the printed "cards" with a real, bulk common, card behind it.

In the meantime, we have learned about how many events allow a limited number (mostly 15) of "playtest cards" and have prepared ourselves with compliant decks using 15 or fewer "playtest" cards and even unpowered budget decks using only real cards that we think are at least playable and fun even if not necessarily totally competitive with full-powered vintage decks. (James' is undoubtedly closer than mine.)

If any of you are coming to GenCon and happen to be wandering past the casual Commander tables in the vicinity of the competitive Magic areas, ask about "Paul and James". We're pretty much fixtures there. And we're likely to be up for a friendly game of Vintage too!

I see I've been my usual wordy self here, but I have enjoyed others' stories in the thread and wanted to put in my own 2 cents' worth as a different perspective.

Paul

I've read this entire thread and I'm sure I'd learn a good deal more from another complete re-read. Naïf that I am, however, my thoughts turn particularly to the mana base and I'd like to see if we can arrive at a better consensus for a more or less ideal base here.

I assume we can take it as given that we are going to need to cast at least 5cmc Eldrazi. It looks like a lot of us are also going to want to cast spells with WW in the cost, whether [[Palace Jailer]], [[Sanctum Prelate]], [[Linvala, Keeper of Silence]] or something off the wall like [[Council's Judgment]] (anti-[[True-Name Nemesis]] tech). (Obviously local meta may affect the selection.)

Anyway, a mana base looking like:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
5 Plains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

looks not far off the lists that most people have posted to this thread, but seems pretty light on white mana production for that. All we have are the Lotus, the Pearl, 2 Karakas (one at a time), and 5 Plains, for a total of 9 white sources and the Lotus can only be used once. I'm pretty sure I recall seeing someone somewhere had a calculation for how many sources you needed to have a probability of p for being able to cast a spell with n of a colored mana requirement by turn t, but I can't seem to put my finger on it. Still, 9 white sources seems way too low to reliably case xWW spells by turn 4-5, which is often the point where it's cast your critical spell or die. (Or, too often, be dead already.)

Cavern obviously can help with the Jailer, the Prelate, either Thalia or the Priest, but Linvala or any non-creature spell seems like a pretty dicey and potentially serious problem.

Adding more white sources looks basically like adding Plains and that means removing the multi-mana lands like Tombs and Temples, which seems approximately equally dangerous.

So, I want to solicit your collective wisdom here. Should we just plan on avoiding anything with WW in the casting cost or does anyone have a better idea?

Thanks,
Paul

It took following several links to find out what part of the country the Comic Book Depot is in. For those who may not know, it is in Wantagh, NY on Long Island between Freeport and Massapequa. I don't think I'm going to be able to make it there tomorrow (from Indiana), but maybe some other time.

@fsecco said in White Eldrazi:

A lot of these cards are Legacy cards though. Palace Jailer, Linvala and TNN don't seem like relevant cards in Vintage... Council's Judgment is also lackluster. The only WW card I'd understand playing of these is Prelate.

Actually, @wappla discussed the fact that he used Linvala in at least one instance. Prelate and Jailer have also both come up in this thread.

You may not run into TNN in Vintage, but I lost to it in two games last weekend and had nothing in my deck (a rogue red deck) that could deal with it at all. My best hope would have been to stick a [[Blood Moon]] early to turn off his Cavern and then counter his TNN with REB. Not a very strong chance. Admittedly, I was playing a doofus deck just because I'm a doofus, but still, it's not the sort of thing I want to do all the time. (Just when I'm feeling like a doofus.) Last weekend, I went 2-2, losing to Merfolk 2-0, winning 2-0 against Oath, winning 2-1 against Ravager Shops and losing 1-2 against Dredge. I'm not enough of a Spike that I have to play the top deck all the time, but at least some of the time I'd like to be prepared for what I have a high probability of facing and at my LGS, Merfolk is not at all unlikely.

@marcb Thanks, that was what I was thinking of. I had forgotten where I had seen it. Now that you remind me of it, SaffronOlive had a nice description of it and how to apply it at https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/brewer-s-minute-hypergeometric-distribution-in-deck-building.

Anyway, a probability of ~58% isn't bad if we're talking about something like having your wincon on board by turn 4-5, but isn't quite so appetizing (to me) when we're talking about a "save or die" effect. I suppose we actually may get another 2-4 turns against TNN, but against [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] whatever we have sided in needs to be effective as soon as, and as reliably as, possible because we're not going to have many chances to cast anything. You can use effects (as opposed to spells) against Emrakul, but I wouldn't mind being able to use the same SB cards against both her and TNN and, e.g., [[Fairgrounds Warden]] would work against Emrakul, but not against TNN.

In my inimitable long-winded way, that's why I feel concerned about casting xWW spells with a mana base like this. I suppose that this is just why WEldrazi is not quite a "Tier 1" deck.

Thanks,
Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. This month, we will be playing on Saturday the 28nd of March.

Come join us on March 28 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

Paul

@fsecco Thanks for your helpful commentary. I do appreciate it. I didn't really intend to get into a discussion about specific SB cards, but it appears we have one, so I'll just say this: I don't have any particular intention of playing Jailer or Linvala myself. I mentioned them only because they had already been brought up by others in this thread. Similarly, I may or may not actually find [[Council's Judgment]] worth playing. In fact, I have not yet played White Eldrazi at all. Since I have had opportunities to play 100% proxies, though, I have wanted to change things up and play a number of different decks. You are probably right that I would be better off simply racing Merfolk with an Eldrazi deck. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm more than willing to take some advice.

So, to return to the original topic, it looks like your summary would boil down to "don't do that" with respect to using xWW cards. "Pick a different strategy." The mana base just can't handle double white. It looks like @Stuart is pretty much on board with that too.

I can live with that. In fact, overall, it looks like it may be the best way to proceed.

Does anyone else draw different conclusions? What experience can anyone offer that would support or reject xWW? I'm not yet committed to a course of action. I'm really interested to learn from anyone who can tell me anything useful.

Thanks,
Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally (including this month) on the last Saturday of each month.

Come join us on 3/31 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's a link to their event calendar: http://www.gametimeindy.com/?page_id=1110

We want to post decklists so please prepare a list to bring with you. You can print a form from this https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11.pdf official DCI form and fill it in by hand with a pen, but for anyone with a little more ambition (or not such good handwriting:) ) you can use decklist.org to generate a listing or you can use this http://files.curby.net/l/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11_interactive.pdf fillable, DCI-compatible PDF. Use whatever works for you, but please see if you can help out by bringing a decklist.

Paul

BTW, I'm not a store employee or anything. Just one of the regular players.

@fsecco Excellent point. And with that, I think I'll just add another temple.

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally (but not this month) on the last Saturday of each month. This month, the last Saturday is Memorial Day Weekend, which is both Indy500 (a great time not to be on the roads in or near Indianapolis) and a time when many people would not be able to attend for other reasons as well. So this month, we will have the Vintage event on the preceding Saturday, May 19.

Come join us on 5/19 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Their event calendar page appears to be borked, but their website is at http://www.gametimeindy.com/

We want to post decklists so please prepare a list to bring with you. You can print a form from this https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11.pdf official DCI form and fill it in by hand with a pen, but for anyone with a little more ambition (or not such good handwriting:) ) you can use decklist.org to generate a listing or you can use this http://files.curby.net/l/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11_interactive.pdf fillable, DCI-compatible PDF. Use whatever works for you, but please see if you can help out by bringing a decklist.

Paul

BTW, I'm not a store employee or anything. Just one of the regular players.

Recently, I've tried splashing Blue for Lavinia and that means I can put a couple of [[Energy Flux]] into the sideboard. That's an absolute beating against Shops. In one game (game 3) last weekend, I got an opener with Energy Flux. My opponent, on the play dropped a turn one Trinisphere. I put down an [[Ancient Tomb]], then, on turn 2 played [[Adarkar Wastes]], took 3 damage from my lands, but played [[Energy Flux]] and pretty much closed out the game right away.

I couldn't change the subject line of the posting, so I figure I ought to post an obvious cancellation notice. Game Time has cancelled all of their near-term events due to the COVID-19 corona virus. Stay well, everybody!

I checked Game Time's website and all their near-term events have been cancelled for the obvious reason. I had looked a day or two ago and a lot still appeared to be on, but they are now following suit to just about everyone. Stay well, everyone and don't do anything dumb. We'll see how it's looking for next month in a couple of weeks.
Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. This month, we will be playing on Saturday the 28nd of March.

Come join us on March 28 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. However, this month, we will be playing on Saturday the 22nd of February, despite the fact that 2020 is a leap year.

Come join us on February 22 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. This month, we will be playing on Saturday the 25th of January.

Come join us on January 25 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. This month, we will be playing on Saturday the 21st of December to avoid the weekend between Christmas and New Year.

Come join us on December 21 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com Unfortunately, their event calendar on the site is not working.

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. This month, we will be playing on Saturday the 16th of November to avoid Thanksgiving weekend and a Grand Prix in Columbus.

Come join us on November 16 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com Unfortunately, their event calendar on the site is not working.

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. We will be playing on Saturday the 26th of October.

Come join us on October 26 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com Unfortunately, their event calendar on the site is not working.

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

We want to post decklists so please prepare a list to bring with you. You can print a form from this https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11.pdf official DCI form and fill it in by hand with a pen, but for anyone with a little more ambition (or not such good handwriting:) ) you can use decklist.org to generate a listing or you can use this http://files.curby.net/l/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11_interactive.pdf fillable, DCI-compatible PDF. Use whatever works for you, but please see if you can help out by bringing a decklist.

Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. However, we will be playing on Saturday the 21st of September because the actual last Saturday conflicts with the Throne of Eldraine prerelease (and no store wants that).

Come join us on September 21 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com Unfortunately, their event calendar on the site is not working.

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

We want to post decklists so please prepare a list to bring with you. You can print a form from this https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11.pdf official DCI form and fill it in by hand with a pen, but for anyone with a little more ambition (or not such good handwriting:) ) you can use decklist.org to generate a listing or you can use this http://files.curby.net/l/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11_interactive.pdf fillable, DCI-compatible PDF. Use whatever works for you, but please see if you can help out by bringing a decklist.

Congrats to Andrew, who won in August playing Dredge.

Paul

Game Time Indy hosts unlimited proxy vintage, generally on the last Saturday of each month. However, we will be playing on Saturday the 24th of August because the actual last Saturday falls in Labor Day weekend.

Come join us on August 24 at 1:00 pm.

Contact information:
Game Time Indy
8244 Center Run Dr.
Indianapolis, IN 46250
317-577-0900
customerservice@gametimeindy.com

Here's their website: http://www.gametimeindy.com Unfortunately, their event calendar on the site is not working.

Some games will be streamed on https://www.twitch.tv/gametimeindy and the stream will also be available later on the gametimeindy youtube channel.

We want to post decklists so please prepare a list to bring with you. You can print a form from this https://wpn.wizards.com/sites/wpn/files/attachements/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11.pdf official DCI form and fill it in by hand with a pen, but for anyone with a little more ambition (or not such good handwriting:) ) you can use decklist.org to generate a listing or you can use this http://files.curby.net/l/mtg_constructed_deck_registration_sheet_pdf11_interactive.pdf fillable, DCI-compatible PDF. Use whatever works for you, but please see if you can help out by bringing a decklist.

Congrats to Nick, who won in July with a rare 4-0 record playing Survival.

Paul