@brianpk80 said in Quality of Experience - An Alternate Take on B&R:
Hi everyone,
-Brian Kelly
Well thought out article and I agree with much of your diagnosis. I don't agree with all of your prescriptions but I'm not off by much. The best thing that can happen for Vintage at this point is to create a Vintage B&R for however many more years MTGO lasts and a Type 1 B&R for paper.
Also, always, always restrict Misstep in all formats.
@wfain said in Phoenix Brew:
Deep Analysis seems too good not to play, right?
and Collective Brutality
@vaughnbros said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
That stops both Misstep and Force of Will (at a mana disadvantage). I still don't understand your point.
Because the Red Blast could actually f'ing resolve without your opponent laughing and chucking a skillstep in their graveyard. And that deck with the blasts wouldn't have to pack 3.8 missteps to misstep the misstep. How hard is this honestly?
@vaughnbros said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
If your opponent can stop you on turn 0, its a pretty big thing for any turn 1 combo deck. 2-card monte plays Helm + Leyline, which is completely immune to misstep. It definitely has a number of hands that care far more about Force of Will, and that is the more limiting card for the deck.
Yeah if only those decks had Red Blasts. Oh wait ...
@john-cox said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@nedleeds said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@john-cox said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@nedleeds FWIW I have a lot of turn one kill decks I can't play because they auto loose to Force of will.
Sure but "turn one kill decks" is a strategy, not a card.
I'm not playing Goblin Charbelcher because of force of will. I think Two Card monte would get really good without Force of will too, so theres Helm of Obedience and Painter's Servant/Grindstone I'm not playing because of Force of will.
I know people play these decks, but the metas are light on blue and the decks get a lot better without FoW in the pool.
Well we can agree to disagree. Force of Wills cost is pretty immense both at design time and run time. If I'm playing 2Card and my opponent is Mind Rotting themselves I'm likely to win. Now if I get Trapped ... that's a feel bad, or my Grindstone gets Misstepped those are miserable transactions where I spent mana and 1 card and my opponent spent no mana and 1 card.
@craw_advantage said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@nedleeds said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@craw_advantage said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@nedleeds said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta
Let me know when you choose not to include a card in a new deck (without your own 3.8 Missteps) because it gets countered by Force of Will.
I think this effect has been somewhat overstated. Most decklists I see still tend to favor 1cmc spells over 2cmc alternatives, even when the latter exists as a stronger version of the effect.
And those decklists all play Misstep. Even Dredge. Outcome with Preordain is maybe the lone exception among the 4 decks that get played in Vintage.
Decks play Misstep if it fits into their gameplan because it's a powerful card. Protecting your own spells is nice, but you'd rather use it to counter something your opponent plays, right? If Misstep were really fundamentally distorting the value of 1cmc versus 2cmc spells, I think people would choose to play superior un-Missteppable versions of cards and thus preserve their Missteps in hand and pull way ahead in the Misstep wars.
Decks play Misstep because it's 0 or +1 mana and you need it to Misstep Missteps as well as other efficient spells. If it were really to counter other spells it would probably get played more in Shops (though multiple Spheres pose an issue with casting it off Shop).
It's gotten a little bit better I guess, I mean a couple of years ago Misstep was +1 mana and +1 token. Misstep as a 0 mana / +1 mana investment against casting a Deathrite Shaman or a Thoughtseize is such a complete tempo and mana investment beating that if you choose to include the latter two cards in your deck you are compelled to either play your own 3.8 Missteps or choose to just get destroyed by every non PO, non Shop deck.
Some people don't mind and just stuff every deck they make with them, they don't mind the 'i haz more' play pattern either. I think it's a miserable card at design time and at run time.
There's also the cascading effects of Misstep like making Redpyroblast unplayable without it. There could be competitive decks with red that could actually resolve the card Pyroblast against opposing blue decks without watering down their 75 with their own 3.8 Missteps.
Cards like Mystic Remora, DRS, Hierarch, and 100 other creatures.
Then there's the game one effect vs. sphere decks where the 3.8misstep.dec player keeps a 2 misstep hand just has a non-game.
I know some players have only begun playing on the last 4-5 years but there was actually a time when Misstep Incest (tm) hadn't taken ahold yet. It was before delve, dack, tokens ruined Vintage forever.
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=6153
483 players. Basically the biggest paper sanctioned Vintage event ever (?). Top 8 has 2 Missteps in a sideboard. But once decks begin to play it in large numbers maindeck, then you are forced to also play it or skip 1 because nothing beats free.
@john-cox said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@nedleeds FWIW I have a lot of turn one kill decks I can't play because they auto loose to Force of will.
Sure but "turn one kill decks" is a strategy, not a card.
@craw_advantage said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta?:
@nedleeds said in Is anyone enjoying this new meta
Let me know when you choose not to include a card in a new deck (without your own 3.8 Missteps) because it gets countered by Force of Will.
I think this effect has been somewhat overstated. Most decklists I see still tend to favor 1cmc spells over 2cmc alternatives, even when the latter exists as a stronger version of the effect.
And those decklists all play Misstep. Even Dredge. Outcome with Preordain is maybe the lone exception among the 4 decks that get played in Vintage.
@garbageaggro said in How to beat Xerox with UW Outcome:
Consider mystic remora, that card does work in any blue matchup especially as the combo player. Turning all their counters into pseudo arcane denials has to put you ahead in the long run.
If you want to get your game 1 win % vs Misstep/Xerox with outcome just play 4 Grids. They are non-Missteppable Remoras. You'll lose some% vs. shops obviously.