#freeserendibdjinn

Being in favor of Missteps restriction is a confluence of the play pattern and the miserable state of deck construction. If a 'Mentor Pilot' replaces them with Mis-D and Pyroblast that to me is fine, one costs Magic: The Gathering mana and the other a card. As you point out they are both narrow and bricks against Thorn.

I'm not sure about any of the ripples or after effects. I am sure (~93% or so) of the post Gush top 32s/8s and they are as I've pointed out ad nauseum Thorns and Missteps. Thorns being Weldrazi and Shops and Missteps being everything else.

I also probably have a bias against restricting creatures, but maybe that mindset is sorely outdated.

@Macdeath said in Vintage Restricted List Discussion:

@Smmenen

Just wanted to point out a few dynamics of restricted misstep vs the current mentor/shops dominance and hear your thoughts.

1- Restricted misstep has the potential to weaken shops as a ripple effect, if Spell pierce, spell snare and/or mana drain replace the slots misstep was in, blue decks would have less dead slots and more ways to interact with shops maindeck.

2- The blue control vs Storm combo matchup would get really lopsided towards rituals, which weakens mentor.

This is my feeling. Suppressing Misstep would open space for storm or aggregate combo (which lost a good card in probe) to attack Mentor. It would of course remain a dog to thorns. And because you could resolve sorcery speed Magic: The Gathering cards without watering your deck down with 4 x Derpsteps then midrange fish decks with DRS or other sorcery speed 1's, could get off the ground. They have always preyed on thorns (though, in fairness BUG waned before TKS picked up steam). Right now we have Rock and Rock. Now if nobody makes changes or just copies the last MTGO lists the quagmire will persist. As Soly points out diversifying the threat base might make 'Blue Stew.dec' even better because I can't hate it out with a Dread of Night.

This is all discounting my main issue with Misstep, which got it banned everywhere else is that you either build a deck to ignore it or play it. Nobody is cutting cards from decks because they get countered by Force of Will but the constant refrain of, eh it just gets misstepped is tiresome.

@wappla any card that creates a dichotomy of 100% saturation probably should be up for debate. I think misstep has the most miserable impact on deck construction, but that's an opinion, not a fact.

@Stormanimagus said in NYSE Open V Official Tournament Report:

I fundamentally think the tempo race has changed in Vintage to the point where you need to run crazy tempo swing plays just to keep up these days. I hope that clarifies some of my thoughts.

-Storm

Exactly. Because you are in many cases competing with free.

@Brass-Man said in NYSE Open V Official Tournament Report:

@nedleeds can you seriously not think of any 2 drops that answer creatures? The fact that you can't Fatal Push a Mentor through Misstep isn't holding any archetypes back.

The best cards at killing Monastery Mentor (Sudden Shock, Sulfur Elemental, Supreme Verdict, Balance) don't even cost one. Those cards would still be the best cards at killing Monastery Mentor even if Misstep was banned.

Sure. But you know efficacy is king in Vintage. The opportunity cost of holding up (or getting to) 2 or 3 mana is greater than 1. Let's be clear, if Mental Misstep cost actual mana we wouldn't be looking at the depressing state of deck building in Vintage. Free is better than 1 is better than 2, you already know this obviously. Something like Sudden Shock is so much worse vs. everything but Mentor it's a liability. Holding up 2 mana and impeding your own development is a cost. Its the disgusting no opportunity cost of phyrexian mana that is the crux of the problem. Play it or don't bother with 1's is what got it banned in Legacy. But in Vintage the problem snowballed post Core 2014.

Pyromancer
Dack
Delve
Mentor

(in chrono-order)

Prior to pyromancer Misstep was played in blue decks but it was rarely a 4 of in large top 8's (Bazaar, Champs, Gencon 80+ man). A blend of pierce, sabotage, snare. Also worth noting pre-Pyro Gush is a bit player, getting out performed in those biggest Vintage events by bolas control, bug fish, rug delver. Gush is seen in storm decks mostly or the intrepid doomsday pilot.

But after Pyromancer the value of maxing out on free spells started an ascension. The go wide approach encouraged tapping out with a lower curve and starting a probe, misstep caligulian orgy of tokens. Then comes dack, a lower to the ground planeswalker with splash damage against LSG. Dack turbo charges Gush while filtering the excess lands you don't need because your spells are free anyway, just like Garfield intended. Now we see 16 free spell decks. This is unprecedented in type 1.

Next came the dumbest mistake of all in delve. We all know how that turned out, Probe becomes +1 mana, perfect info and card neutral. Misstep is +1 mana, counter a spell for free. Dack is Rite of Flame. Delve synergized so well with all the aforementioned mechanics the deck basically built itself.

Then we get Mentor which with prowess and 2 initial toughness is much tougher to hate out than pyromancer (remember Slice and Dice?).

But magic and vintage in general has a stickiness to it. We have 1 gush but nothing in principle has changed. The most efficient rule, but free is king. If you take Misstep away a mentor player may have to think about running a mentor out after tapping out. You may push the fundamental turn back one, or pressure the mentor player into playing a 'naked' mentor.

The aforementioned textless cards that have no hope of resolving (barring missteping the misstep ... which as I've said is the incestuous deck building and play pattern that got it banned) can proactively deal with mentor. Additionally cards like DRS or Noble Hierarch which currently read Target Opponent loses 2 life and discards a Misstep help in the shop matchup by getting onboard mana through thorn.

There might be a few good arguments against Misstep out there, but you can't just take every random data point and say they all fit your hypothesis

This isn't true. The data points aren't random. Misstep and Thorn have crested 90% and hit 100% here at the NYSE. This is an awful state of deck building in type one.

I'm no fan of Mentor, but I think deck builders could attack it more effectively if the misery of misstep was removed.

Edit: and this longer post that isn't directly addressing the contents of the top 8 should really just go in the bnr thread.

@Prospector said in NYSE Open V Official Tournament Report:

@nedleeds what I think is more depressing is that all the blue decks in the top 8 ran mentor...

That's depressing also. Be sick if you could resolve plow or fatal push through the wall of missteps. Maybe even Thoughtseize the stupid thing. Or resolve Dread of Night, or resolve Illness in the Ranks. But I guess I can run my own 4 x Missteps. Oh ... that's why everyone not playing 4 x Thorn plays 4 x Missteps. Oh that's why the piece of phyrexian idiocy is banned in every other format.

Anyway, no shade at the players who were obviously trying to win but its just really getting old.

Congrats to the top 8 participants. Everyone had really good things to say about the new location. I hope to get home to New York and make next year.

The actual format is supremely depressing. 100% of the top 8 with either 4 x Misstep or 4 x Thorn. Yawn. #thornsandmissteps

Edit: The coverage was fantastic as well! Having dedicated commentary was great. My only suggestion might be to try to enforce better proxies if you want to get on camera. Or as they started doing later in the event, keep a box of proxies that don't look like garbage in the feature area. Some peoples proxies were scribbled the morning of (cough Steve cough) and were unreadable.

The sources standards for their deck thread discussion is abysmal. Massive flood of posters who don't play and haven't even read primers.

I don't take the internet too seriously, one of the benefits of being old.