@vaughnbros Sensei’s divining top plus foundry inspector plus this lets you draw your entire deck.

@thewhitedragon69 the issue I find is that by making a deck not soft to Karn, it becomes weak to blue.

I’m fine with that as you can’t have it both ways. But some players want to hedge against everything.

Basically do you want to beat Karn? You can but you’d be a dog to 50% of the meta running blue. If you don’t want to lost to blue, then lose to Karn.

I’m fine with those being the choices, but it seems like others aren’t.

I think one of the biggest things is that people are trying to find ways to beat Karn with their current decks. Maybe a new deck needs to be brewed that has a bad blue or dredge matchup. A deck can’t be “51%” against everything.

Some people disagree, but I don’t particularly hate a rock papers scissors meta.

I play red shops. I think Karn is best when he's in a deck that can abuse him, but not rely on him. Goblin Welder stax is probably worse than mono brown stax, but i like the additional dimension that welder brings.

@zias I've been a player of red shops for a long time. I just jammed 4 Karn in place of some number of Null Rods/lock pieces. Karn is insane. He's really good. I like how he can win on his own, but is even better if the deck is built in a way that doesn't rely on him.

So now the question for shops; grafdggers cage or leylines now?

1G - Instant
You gain 3 life
Storm

Counters a Tendrils kill. Does nothing for Mentor's tokens. I don't think this card is strong enough but it sure is interesting.

Starter: this is the null rod on legs we've all been asking for. Not white, but it shouldn't matter since most of the hatebear type decks run green for DRS anyways. I think this would be really strong in a Junk type hatebear deck.

@chubbyrain

I’m 100% going to test it. I may even play vault key now as an alternative win con. I think having 8 goblins will make cavern better too.

Turn 1 welder, turn 2 this for insert busted artifact is insane. Having Karn is also great. Man I’m so happy.

I want to brew some sort of red welder/shops vault key grindstone painter crazy deck.

@albarkhane that’s a very fine assessment.
I jammed in Karn and spheres to see how greedy I can be. I may end up shaving some Karns for either more revokers, null rods, or mana. I just wanted to test 4 because the only way to see how good a card initially is is to draw it as often as possible and then slowly shave it down.

I've been playing red stax. It's not 5c but it does run Welder. Karn made it so insane.

// Vintage Red Shops Karn

// 60 Maindeck
// 27 Artifact
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Trinisphere
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Smokestack
1 Mana Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Uba Mask
4 Tangle Wire
1 Mana Vault
3 Sphere of Resistance

// 7 Creature
4 Goblin Welder
1 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Revoker

// 22 Land
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Ancient Tomb
2 Cavern of Souls

// 4 Planeswalker
4 Karn, the Great Creator

// 15 Sideboard
// 10 Artifact
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

// 2 Creature
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Duplicant

// 3 Land
SB: 3 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

The ability to play Karn for 4 mana on turn 2 after a turn 1 welder, -2 for Lattice, and then weld it into play is insane.

Wow. Another taxer. Hatebears is getting some good stuff.

@ambivalentduck

I've been playing this. It can use some tuning but it seems fun.

// Vintage Goblins Aggro

// 60 Maindeck
// 5 Artifact
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
3 Null Rod

// 32 Creature
3 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
3 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
4 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Trashmaster
2 Goblin Cratermaker
1 Gempalm Incinerator

// 3 Instant
3 Mental Misstep

// 20 Land
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Mountain
2 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

// 15 Sideboard
// 6 Artifact
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt

// 5 Creature
SB: 1 Goblin Chainwhirler
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 2 Goblin Cratermaker
SB: 1 Goblin Trashmaster

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

It's a Lackey/Instigator based build that tries to cheat stuff into play. Not sure about the right configurations but having 8 enabler seem good. The new Legion Warboss and Rabblemaster also seem like theyd be good pay-off spells. Maybe even Piledriver.

Goblin Chainwhirler looks kind of spicy. Hits the jeskai decks pretty hard as it kills everything except for mentor. Can also hit hangerback walker tokens, phyrexian revokers, etc.

Time to revisit the good ole little green boys?

For the record, here is a rough draft of where i'm starting my testing at:

// Vintage Goblins Aggro

// 60 Maindeck
// 4 Artifact
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
2 Null Rod

// 37 Creature
3 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Chainwhirler
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Warren Instigator
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Welder
3 Gempalm Incinerator

// 19 Land
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
2 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Artifact
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage

// 5 Creature
SB: 1 Goblin Welder
SB: 2 Goblin Chainwhirler
SB: 2 Tuktuk Scrapper

// 4 Enchantment
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Pyrokinesis

Biggest thoughts:

1. Is Simian Spirit Guide better or Mox/Crypt/Chrome Mox better. They all have their pros and cons. SSG gets around thorns and provides red, but is a one-shot use. Off-color moxen stays around, but they're off color. Chrome Mox is perma source of red, but costs an extra card. Decisions decisions....atm i'm leaning towards SSG since our deck is so red-intensive.

2. I have no idea if my creature count/toolbox is correct, it's just a bunch of stuff I wanted to play with the idea that Matron can tutor for them. Oh well.

@defector null rod doesn’t affect the new Karn planeswalker.

How do y’all feel about tanglewire? I’ve always been fond of the card but because of how aggressive ravager MUD is along with how fast PO decks are, I feel like I’m better off dropping the tanglewires for either more null rod, ensnaring bridge, or damping Sphere.

@griselbrother I guess my main issue is I have a problem with spirit sticking. It always gets countered and If I use caverns, it always gets abraded or STPed. I think I just need to re-evaluate my sequencing and use something like Thalia 2.0 or another critter as bait more. I run the odd choice of wanting to land spirit as early as I can to shut down card draw but save it for when they use removal for other stuff.

@griselbrother it was you Thank you for the response. I've been jamming some games with your list recently. I've found that Relic Warder is really good against Shops where as Spirit isn't as good against the blue decks as warder is against shops. I think that it's because Thalia already taxes them so hard. Maybe i've been playing the deck wrong though. Anyways, I think I would start by making Relic Warder a 4-of and start shaving on some Spirit of the Labys.

@revengeanceful said in White Eldrazi:

@naixin If you're picking one, I think White Eldrazi would give you substantially better odds of winning matches than the deck you posted. It's more explosive and the overall card quality is higher. I would think there would be a lot of games with that white deck where you draw the wrong hate creature at the wrong time and just get run over.

Fair enough. Would you have a white eldrazi list you recommend I start with?