The Vintage format lives on broken cards, and I see no reason why there shouldn't be broken cards that benefit my particular deck of choice to an inordinate degree. I mean, that's only fair.
I think Arcanist is more like the red Bob, but whatever.
@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:
The format for Magic is a concession to the fact that they did not know what they were doing with card designs at the onset of the game. Banned and restricted lists were pieced together to give the format some structure to make it possible, but it is still a format of overpowered cards from the dawn of the game that will not be reprinted, in part created to placate card speculators so that there reserve list cards held value. I think I can reasonably say that if the lotus and moxen were not legal in any format they would drop in price as they would be relegated to collectors items.
Look at the eternal formats for any CCG that has lasted the test of time. Either the stuff from the early sets were vastly underpowered and therefor a non issue for players wishing to join the format, typically games that learned from Magics mis-steps, or they are in the same situation where the barrier to entry is much higher.
Elite players tend not to like to think of themselves as breathing rarefied air, same as how millionaires like to think they are "of the people", but the very fact that you are posting on this forum does in fact carry with it some level of elitism because you play a format of magic with a super high barrier to entry and a staunched, somewhat clique based community.
I'll equate this tread to a current political discussion.
usually this is a bad move
yes, removing the reserve list would remove a large barrier to entry into vintage (not all of them), but it wouldn't be a silver bullet for growing the format*. however, we don't have power to remove the reserve list. we do have the power to run proxy events.
*decks would still be expensive unless wotc decided to print virtually unlimited amounts of power and duals and all the other expensive cards.
@moorebrother1 said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:
@craw_advantage The prospect of only having 2 or 3 paper events is the reality of Vintage right now. The interesting thing is that Old School has several well attended paper events without proxies.
I can barely keep up with the number of Old School events and the attendance is typically more that 32. I picked that because it is the So Many Insane Plays cutoff.
Is this more of a card pool issue? Is it nostalgia? Why is that player base able to sustain more events, at least for now, for paper events?
Old School events have great turnout because they are fun, and very different from sanctioned magic tournaments. They're usually in a venue that serves drinks, and they're run by community members who do a lot of work to make sure everyone has a good time. That sort of event doesn't exist for Vintage at the moment.
I totally agree that vintage events should be allow proxies. All of the events that I have run allowed proxies. But if you want to get new blood in, you have to convince them that it's worth their time to build a deck (or borrow one) and show up.
What: Unlimited Proxy Vintage Magic
When: Saturday June 29, 2018
Where: Kidforce Collectibles, Berea, OH
Entry Fee: $20.00
Registration Opens: 11 AM
Start Time: 12:00 PM
Format: Unsanctioned Vintage - Unlimited Proxy
Prizes - store credit equal 100% of entry fees, split among the top players. ** PLUS!! ** $50 prize donation from our awesome community!
We will play Swiss+1 rounds based on attendance so everyone gets to play plenty of Vintage. Decklists will be collected from the top players. If you feel confident you'll make it in, write one up beforehand to save time!
Playtest cards will be permitted. There are several ways of making playtest cards:
Using Basic Land: The first and most basic is taking a basic land card and writing the details of the card on it.
Altering an existing card: PREFERRED! The second method is to use a card that shares some of the characteristics with the card that you want to make as a Playtest Card and remove any characteristics that do not match, replacing them with the correct characteristics. Methods for doing this can be found on youtube.
Printed Slips: the third is to print out all 75 cards, and slip the cuts sheets of paper into each sleeve. If you do this, every card must be printed on the same type of paper and have a basic land backing.
Collector's Edition cards: CE/ICE versions of cards are allowed.
World Championship cards: blank WC cards can be used to make great proxies with your own writing or art.
See you there! BAOM!
This is most comparable to Murderous Cut, which saw a tiny bit of Vintage play. It's in a slightly better color, and can hit walkers, but not some large dudes.
"Is this a problem when we already play the two restricted delve spells"
There is effectively no limit on how many delve spells you can play that refuel your hand (Dig, Cruise). The answer for "how many" of those effects to play is "as many as possible". Delve spells that don't draw cards or let you play more cards are limited (almost nobody plays a full set of Gurmags), usually to 1-2, maybe 3 if you have a lot of enablers.
So in other words, if you want to play 1-2 copies of this card there isn't much downside from a delving point of view.
You keep citing poll numbers and supermajorities, but the people who vote to ban stuff are not necessarily representative of the Vintage community. A lot of people complain on social media who barely play or don't play.
Do you want b&r to be dictated by online polls? I don't either.
Just because BK's post is long does not mean it is high effort. In fact, it is rather low effort. "Let's restrict or ban cards from every major archetype, except the one that I conveniently play" (Oath).
What am I suggesting, exactly? How about BK and his friends start playtesting the post "Spring Cleaning" vintage. Find out if it really is better or worse than the current meta. Find out what's broken or what's too restrictive, make changes, and present your findings. Because I guarantee that the first draft of the "Spring Cleaning" B&R list has many flaws, and it's only a matter of time before that metagame gets broken, one way or the other.
As someone who has taken part in creating a format (Middle School), decisions about card legality and rules were made with a lot of research and testing. I expect the same from my peers.
@vaughnbros said in Quality of Experience - An Alternate Take on B&R:
In my opinion, this is a terrible mentality that holds Vintage back from growing as a format. We are all well aware that some of these cards are absolutely broken, yet there is always a huge backlash from conservatives about restricting cards.
Appeasement by caving to the loudest voices won't solve anything. There's no amount of restrictions or format tinkering that will make him happy. I look forward to the next Twitter rant about whatever new broken card WOTC prints this year.
And from a power level perspective, these changes don't even make sense. Ban Treasure Cruise but leave Ancestral Recall legal? Apart from being silly, it shows that even BK acknowledges that there are some cards that are simply a part of the Vintage experience.
Are you sure that you even enjoy this format? Why not play something else?