I was discussing on one of the FB pages - this speeds up ravager shops. Having a ravager and this in play basically means your opponent always has to consider the next turns attack lethal - even if he's at 20 health. It still has the same weakness to Karn, of course, but no answer is across the field perfection.
So Ponder and git probe in the yard means this is a 2/2 right?
What about something like ancestral visions with no mana cost (not advocating a deck with AV to make this bigger, just questioning how the rules work)?
As far as decks this fits into - seems like a capable finish for mono black control or oath. Consider many strategies against oath include an early 'cant enter except from being cast' type card to stall out oath until they can go off, having this drop on turn 3 or 4 can really change games. We've all seen oath games where oath hits the board, the next turn cage hits the board, then its draw-go for ages. Those become, Oath, then cage, then this after a resolved oath trigger as a 10/10 or something around there. Thats game over.
What if instead of counterfeit, I said "high quality proxies"? It seems to solve a lot of the issues mentioned. I understand reluctance, but there are not enough vintage players out there to start with to really make it an issue where we are 'encouraging' the counterfeit operations. They already exist, and the focus is not about vintage.
Like I said in another post - if you want high quality, just make sure its EASILY distinguishable from a real card. Having to bust out a jewelers loup, do the light test, etc is not easily distinguishable. Basically, if a cursory look makes somebody think for even a second, "hey, thats a nice looking black lotus", its a counterfeit. Distinguish it somehow. Make it an alternate art, full art, put it thru a foiling process etc. There are any number of things you can do to make a high quality proxy that leaves no doubt to even the most casual player that its not real.
I'm pretty sure with this play, a ravager still comes in as a 0/0 with a 1/1 counter on it. We'll have to wait for the official ruling but it seems very similar to situations I would run into with Ravnica Allegiance Drafts playing riot cards with simic ascendancy. Since riot creatures enter the battlefield with the 1/1 counter on them, they wouldn't trigger simic ascendancy.
I'm however a bit rusty and I'm not sure if the trigger from Leyline for the original spell would resolve before Storm triggers or not,
If multiple triggers from the same controller would go on the stack at the same time, the controller chooses the order. Since these (storm and leyline triggers) are most likely not the same controller, then triggers from the active player go on the stack first, then triggers from opponents go on the stack.
So with this in play if somebody casts tendrils the stack would look like this
- Leyline trigger to deal 2 damage
- storm trigger
- tendrils spell
Leyline triggers and deals 2 damage to the storm player.
Storm trigger goes off, say 3 copies. A target is chosen for each copy and goes on the stack, each of which triggers leyline.
The stack is now:
- leyline deals 2
- leyline deals 2
- leyline deals 2
- tendrils copy
- tendrils copy
- tendrils copy
(all assuming the tendrils player just targets everything at the person with this leyline in play).
@ChubbyRain Nice work.
I think there is a error in "Chance of Green card out of the remaining six cards", your results correspond to a population of 59 = (60 - 1 * Force) but it should be done with population of 56 = (60 - 4 * Force).
Everything else seems good for me.
I'm not a math guy, but this seems wrong. If you are running 4 force of vigor and 1 is the first card you draw, then there are 59 cards left. One of the green cards could be force of vigor. Unless of course you plan on never pitching fov to fov. But its still a population of 59.
So this brings up the argument of what is the difference between a really good proxy and a counterfeit. Since we are not selling the proxies we can put the discussion of morality/ethics aside,
No we can't. You can make proxies that are WOTC printed quality. But they'd better have some significant difference from the real thing - alternate art for example. Any card that could realistically deceive another person into believing its a real copy is, imho, a counterfeit, and should not be tolerated. There is no reason for it.
but playing against a deck thats mostly handwritten in a tournament setting stinks and hurts my overall experience when I am taking time out of my insane schedule to play Magic for 6 or 7+ hours.
Just to play devil's advocate, but in any given tournament, take a look at how many people are playing say 10+ proxies. How would your play experience be without those people there? I'm guessing non-existent.
I'm going back to my first post. My point of that post isn't that we shouldn't have proxies. We should. My point there was that making this a proxy environment, even 100% proxy, won't resolve the issues the OP is asking about.
I dont think it would help grow the format to be honest for a number of reasons all of which are based on personal experience vs any research
too many magic players are proxy adverse. They view any use of proxies as a negative. Even when its explained for this format that proxies tournaments are the norm, they simply can't get their head around playing magic with proxies. Its anathema to their thought process
vintage is a high powered, turn 1 format. Not relevant at all if its truly a turn 1 format. That is people's perspective. Opening up to proxies wont change that. At least not directly
The cost is a deterrent. "but proxies eliminate this issues." the cost is a deterrent. "But proxies elimi..." the cost is a deterrent. Again, reality takes a back seat to perception here. I literally had this conversation with players of other formats at Deal Me In Games,
Me: "You should stop by this sunday and check out the vintage tournament."
player: "yeah, that would be neat to see, its such a fun format and all those old cards. But I could never afford it."
me: "That's the beauty of the vintage format. You can proxy cards and cut the cost. Plus if there is a deck you want to try, I can loan you most of it. Plenty of other players who will be there will be happy to loan you a deck. Proxies make it really accessible."
player: "Yeah, but its really expensive."
In order to grow paper vintage it needs nothing more than advertising and backing from Wizards. Until that happens, its a dying format.
And here are your standings for the 2019 Deal Me In Games Invitational. Ryan McKinney does enough to maintain 1st place by 1 point over 2nd place Greg Hoover. And Greg falls into a tie for 2nd place with a charging Joe Brennan. The rest of the top is Dean Harris, Zach Dobbin, Stephen Harvey (new entrant to this year's top 8.) , Nick DiJohn and Chuck Grebe.
Congratulations to all are attendees yesterday, to all those in the top and to all those working on securing a top 8 spot to the invitational!
Another round is in the books for Deal Me In Games. We had 10 show up for our off-schedule event yesterday with 5 rounds of swiss and a cut to the top 4.
Our top 4 saw 4th seeded Joe Brennan (on his u/w/r xerox list) defeat 1st seeded Dean Harris (on no land belcher) 2-0
And 3rd Seeded Stephen Harvey (golden gun oath) defeat 2nd seeded Joe Lim (ravager shops) 2-1
In the finals Joe Brenna defeated Stephen Harvey 2-0 with stephen taking a hard luck mulligan down to 4 or 5 in game 2.
As usual we presented a pretty diverse meta at deal me in games. Out of 10 decks we had 3 xerox blue decks (joe's and my u/r saheeli/narset and a snapcaster xerox). 1 DPS decks. 1 no land belcher, 2 oath (golden gun and titan oath), 1 dredge, 2 ravager shops for 6 pretty distinct archetypes. And within the archetypes we had 2 xerox decks that played out a bit differently and 2 different oath decks.
Narset, Parter of Veils appeared in 4 decks
Karn the Great Creator was in 2 decks
Timetwister made into 3 decks (2 with narset, 1 without narset)
I'll have the year to date point totals for the store invitational shortly and Jason will be posting the top 4 decklists.
Fun anecdote from the day. Dean and I played each other in round 5. After the round was over (he won 2-0) we threw a 3rd game in for fun with me on the play. He started with leyline of anticipation in play.
I laid out land, mox pearl, voltaic key go. He passes his turn without doing anything. On turn 2 I play mana crypt and announced timetwister. In response he flashes in mana crypt and lion's eye diamond. With timetwister on the stack he cracks LED which causes him to discard his hand. I look in his gy and see 2 of his charbelchers. So in response I annouce FoW, pitching (I think) preordain leaving pyroblast and dack in my hand figuring Dean has no resources but a crypt and is in single card top deck mode while I get dack to filter draws.
Dean looks at me and says ,"Wait, what are you targeting with force of will?" completely confused about the stack now. "My own timetwister. Forcing it." It dawns on Dean what I'm doing. In a single sequence we had LEd and crypt cast at instant speed and somebody forcing their own timetwister. Absolutely have to love Vintage plays.
Honestly the difference between 7 mana and 6 mana is huge. I might consider this for draft and in some wonkie vintage land deck if that generic mana was only 4. Honestly even then I think there are better options. But the haste on an evasive body to deal with an abundance of planeswalkers is something to consider. Just not at 7 mana.
I think that if you're playing Thieves you should explore the synergies between Narset and the usual thieves package of Notion Thief, Dack and Draw7s. Overloading on Dack now that you can play Narset seems pretty good.
edit: also, you should be worried about Karn too. Packing ways to deal with PWs directly seems good. I don't know if The Elderspell is playable or if you want a reliable bounce spell like Chain or Echoing Truth.
I started here and ended up straight RU w/out the thieves package.
Nice read. I noticed though for your jeskai, the only white is mentor and swords, that's it. Since you are worried about the effects of wasteland, could you -1 tundra, +1 island for a more stable mana base? But having 2 un-wasteable (is that even a word outside of magic) islands you can fetch up lets you cycle thru your narets easier. With the number of fetches you run, you can wait to bring out the tundra until you are ready to use it.