I posted the following in the single card discussion but figured I'd repost it here since this is the more active traxos thread?

Just wanted to mention I played Shops with 4 Traxos at the TMD Open this past weekend to a 5-2 finish, missing out on T16 due to tiebreakers. Traxos was completely insane. I encourage you all to try it. My list was as follows:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Foundry Inspector
1 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Null Rod
2 Precursor Golem
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Traxos is:

1. tremendously pressuring in conjunction with Ravager, often threatening to one-shot the opponent through blockers
2. effective source of reach on many stalled boards
3. the lowest cmc maindeckable mirror breaker
4. easy enough to untap without playing any weird cards like Voltaic Servant. Yes, when your hand gets small, you have to think about what happens if you topdeck a Traxos. It's a decision point you have to practice. Also Shops is already 70% historic cards...

You want to play four of them because it's better the earlier you play it. Besides the obvious reasons due to the untap clause, playing it early in conjuction with a lock piece (either before or after) often presents a tough fork for blue opponents with opening hands of average strength. Can they outrace Traxos if they counter or destroy the sphere? Can they set up under a sphere if they counter or kill Traxos?

I think people are worrying too much about the legendary clause. In certain archetypes in other formats, it is often correct to play 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben despite the fact that it's legendary. I think a similar remark holds here. Untap triggers are sometimes worth a card, so drawing multiples isn't even the end of the world...

@socialite I tried. I apologize for being stupid? I was just trying to give you credit for your effort in aggregating that data.

Anyway, I understand what you are trying to argue based on the post prior to the one I quoted which compared Gush to Shops specifically. But the naive reading of your other statistics comparing Gush to all Thorn decks indicates the contrary. Each slot in the top 32 of EW is 3.125 percent, so your statistics indicate we're about four players away from the naive expectation, which I think is pretty close. The debate, as far as I can tell, is about Thorn decks collectively, so that's the relevant data point.

There were times in the past year when White Eldrazi was better positioned than Workshops, and apparently the opposite was true at Eternal Weekend. What never happened was a consistent pattern of prison-style strategies flat-out dominating all other archetypes in way that is clearly not accountable by statistical fluctuations.

The second point people are making is that they don't like playing against Thorn decks, and I have no response to that; obviously at some point if enough people hate it, WotC should do something, but all I'm saying is that I don't think the balance argument exists. I personally think it's dangerous for Wizards to get into the habit of adjudicating what is fun rather than what is fair.

To address the question mark in the original post, I was the 8th seed and I was not playing TKS in my decklist. I had maindeck Crucibles and Karn, Silver Golem. When I was testing Montolio's decklist, I found it very hard to cast TKS a lot of the time and frequently felt that I wanted access to Factory. Since I am a risk-averse coward who is afraid of being unable to cast things, I just fell back on "old shops cards" rather than play the new hotness.

I believe the results confirm that my judgment was wrong.

@mcfreiz said in 6/24/17 - Long Island, New York - NYSE Open V - Power Eight, Workshops & Drains Tournament!:

is there a link for the coverage?

https://www.twitch.tv/talesofadventure

The main knock against your hand that you didn't even mention is that your hand doesn't apply any pressure; even if you draw mana, you are going to give your opponent a lot of draw steps to find their counter-hate. That being said, it is true that you do have a lot of live draws: (a) any mana source or (b) any 1cmc cantrip or (c) any one of the other 4 sideboard cards that you haven't drawn yet. That is probably more than half your library.

I think this is actually a very close call and I wouldn't fault you for throwing it away, but I think given how live the top of your deck is, and how you have a StP to interact with their plan B of an early Hollow One, I'd probably try it. Depending on your exact list, you're probably like 75% or better to find a relevant draw in your next two draw steps, and this hand + any relevant card feels like a keep even if it's slow.

People habitually underestimate the ability of formats to adapt in response to bannings. This discussion happens every time.

I can't think of a banning or a restriction in the last 10 years in Standard, Modern, Legacy, or Vintage that ever "completely destroyed a format" in the way people like @gkraigher are suggesting.

@themonadnomad said:

@joshuabrooks Unfortunately, I think that you are 100% correct. This was certainly (for me) an unforeseen consequence of them bringing Vintage to MTGO ...

So I guess the strategy is for everyone to play online more so that our voices are heard?

@Soly said:

@lysandros wait... who are you again? Do you know anything about this format or me? For a good 8 months I never lost to workshops. Rug Delver was insane. The manabase isn't the fucking problem with literally any of the decks I play. The problem is even an paralyzed, mentally handicapped person on life support can go "Derpa derpa lodestone". If you never get to your removal because you only tap for 1 mana, and they're tapping for 3, you're going to have a bad time.

His tone aside, I think there is something to the assertion that one can improve your workshops matchup by playing maindeck hate, more mana, and more basics. It was possible to build blue decks that did well against Workshops even when Lodestone and Chalice were not restricted. Maindeck Steel Sabotages and Hurkyl's Recall; 2-3 extra basic land; that sort of thing.

I posted the following in the single card discussion but figured I'd repost it here since this is the more active traxos thread?

Just wanted to mention I played Shops with 4 Traxos at the TMD Open this past weekend to a 5-2 finish, missing out on T16 due to tiebreakers. Traxos was completely insane. I encourage you all to try it. My list was as follows:

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Foundry Inspector
1 Lodestone Golem
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard:

4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Null Rod
2 Precursor Golem
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wurmcoil Engine

Traxos is:

1. tremendously pressuring in conjunction with Ravager, often threatening to one-shot the opponent through blockers
2. effective source of reach on many stalled boards
3. the lowest cmc maindeckable mirror breaker
4. easy enough to untap without playing any weird cards like Voltaic Servant. Yes, when your hand gets small, you have to think about what happens if you topdeck a Traxos. It's a decision point you have to practice. Also Shops is already 70% historic cards...

You want to play four of them because it's better the earlier you play it. Besides the obvious reasons due to the untap clause, playing it early in conjuction with a lock piece (either before or after) often presents a tough fork for blue opponents with opening hands of average strength. Can they outrace Traxos if they counter or destroy the sphere? Can they set up under a sphere if they counter or kill Traxos?

I think people are worrying too much about the legendary clause. In certain archetypes in other formats, it is often correct to play 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben despite the fact that it's legendary. I think a similar remark holds here. Untap triggers are sometimes worth a card, so drawing multiples isn't even the end of the world...

Just wanted to mention I played Shops with 4 Traxos at the TMD Open this past weekend to a 5-2 finish, missing out on T16 due to tiebreakers. Traxos was completely insane. I encourage you all to try it. My list was as follows:

• 4 Ancient Tomb
• 4 Mishra's Factory
• 4 Mishra's Workshop
• 1 Strip Mine
• 1 Tolarian Academy
• 4 Wasteland
• 1 Black Lotus
• 1 Chalice of the Void
• 1 Mana Crypt
• 1 Mox Emerald
• 1 Mox Jet
• 1 Mox Pearl
• 1 Mox Ruby
• 1 Mox Sapphire
• 1 Sol Ring
• 4 Sphere of Resistance
• 1 Thorn of Amethyst
• 1 Trinisphere
• 4 Arcbound Ravager
• 4 Foundry Inspector
• 1 Lodestone Golem
• 2 Phyrexian Metamorph
• 4 Phyrexian Revoker
• 4 Steel Overseer
• 4 Traxos, Scourge of Kroog
• 4 Walking Ballista

Sideboard:

• 4 Grafdigger's Cage
• 4 Null Rod
• 2 Precursor Golem
• 1 Sorcerous Spyglass
• 2 Tormod's Crypt
• 2 Wurmcoil Engine

Traxos is:

1. tremendously pressuring in conjunction with Ravager, often threatening to one-shot the opponent through blockers
2. effective source of reach on many stalled boards
3. the lowest cmc maindeckable mirror breaker
4. easy enough to untap without playing any weird cards like Voltaic Servant. Yes, when your hand gets small, you have to think about what happens if you topdeck a Traxos. It's a decision point you have to practice. Also Shops is already 70% historic cards...

You want to play four of them because it's better the earlier you play it. Besides the obvious reasons due to the untap clause, playing it early in conjuction with a lock piece (either before or after) often presents a tough fork for blue opponents with opening hands of average strength. Can they outrace Traxos if they counter or destroy the sphere? Can they set up under a sphere if they counter or kill Traxos?

I think people are worrying too much about the legendary clause. In certain archetypes in other formats, it is often correct to play 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben despite the fact that it's legendary. I think a similar remark holds here. Untap triggers are sometimes worth a card, so drawing multiples isn't even the end of the world...

Looks like we're going to get another Staff of Nin-like card, via Reddit noticing the Brazilian MTG Twitter account accidentally tweeting out a preview card early:

Immortal Sun - 6
Legendary Artifact - M
Players can't activate Loyalty abilities of Planeswalkers.
At the beginning of your draw step, draw an additional card.
Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast.
Creatures you control get +1/+1.

EDIT: card image

The main knock against your hand that you didn't even mention is that your hand doesn't apply any pressure; even if you draw mana, you are going to give your opponent a lot of draw steps to find their counter-hate. That being said, it is true that you do have a lot of live draws: (a) any mana source or (b) any 1cmc cantrip or (c) any one of the other 4 sideboard cards that you haven't drawn yet. That is probably more than half your library.

I think this is actually a very close call and I wouldn't fault you for throwing it away, but I think given how live the top of your deck is, and how you have a StP to interact with their plan B of an early Hollow One, I'd probably try it. Depending on your exact list, you're probably like 75% or better to find a relevant draw in your next two draw steps, and this hand + any relevant card feels like a keep even if it's slow.

Are there data about or decklists of the t16/t32? I'd be interested to see if interesting ideas got close to t8.

@mcfreiz said in 6/24/17 - Long Island, New York - NYSE Open V - Power Eight, Workshops & Drains Tournament!:

is there a link for the coverage?

https://www.twitch.tv/talesofadventure

Really disappointed I had to miss this, but looking forward to seeing some coverage!

Since this is deck is playing 4 Null Rods, I think we shouldn't be playing any Chrome Moxes. As you said, Ruby and Lotus are fine replacements for the first two, but maybe the last 2 should be Lotus Petal and maybe a Crystal Vein or an off-color Mox. I just don't want to two-for-one myself in a deck like this; it lives and dies by its opening hands, and so I don't want to lose a card if I can help it.

Another question: Is this a deck that wants to play any other sphere effects? In Legacy, I understand that it runs more Trinispheres, but since you can't do that in Vintage, maybe you want some normal Spheres of Resistance instead of other random cards.

Finally: Is Sulfur Elemental supposed to be in the main and Ensnaring Bridge in the side? I would have naively thought it should be the other way around.

I've seen people test Steel Overseer on MODO with Walker + Ravager + Triskelion, and now I wonder if that's really what you should be doing now that you have another creature that synergizes and can reliably come down the turn after you play Steel Overseer.

Taking inspiration from CLYDE THE GLIDE DREXLER's list linked here, you could try something like:

4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Hangarback Walker
1 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
2 Triskelion
4 Walking Ballista

17 standard shops lands, minus a Factory or something.
14 standard lock pieces
8 standard artifact mana

Walking Ballista
XX
Artifact Creature - Construct
Walking Ballista enters the battlefield with X +1/+1 counters on it.
4: Put a +1/+1 counter on Walking Ballista.
Remove a +1/+1 counter: Walking Ballista deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
0/0

Potentially competes with Hangarback Walker and/or Triskelion in Ravager-based Workshops lists.