@thewhitedragon69 i think you have a misunderstanding of how the survival deck plays out. there are a few different types of draws you might see:
- busted survival draws: this is what you seem to have in your mind, and they are certainly one of the most powerful things the deck can be doing. chaining vengevines into rootwalla into a hollow one leads to a ton of power on the board fairly quickly.
- bazaar draws: the other aggressive opening from this deck comes from bazaar and it's why the deck plays the full 4. looting into a combination of rootwallas, hollow ones, and vengevines can easily put 5-12 power on the board on turn 1 sometimes even if your spells get countered. These bazaar hands try to dump creatures on the board and then be just disruptive enough for all 3 turns the game might last. Modern decks with hollow one and phoenixes and bloodghasts do something similar, but this deck does it in a much more busted way.
- disruptive draws: you can also see hands that just power out hate cards ahead of curve. often you try to transition to a bazaar or survival gameplan afterwards, but just hatecards alone is good enough sometimes and i will keep hands that play turn 1 thalia even without an engine card.
- grindy draws: squee (and bob) is included because bazaar does deplete you of resources, and you want to be able to bazaar as often as possible. this can sometimes be a card advantage engine, but mostly its filtering and looking for cards to apply pressure.
overall, i think the survival deck is very real and attacks the metagame fairly well and from a somewhat unique angle. not all decks are equipped to handle lots of large creatures all at once and the graveyard hate being played isn't even that bad for most of our deck.
Went 5-1 on the night: 3-0 vs shops, 1-1 vs Four Color Pile, 1-0 vs UWR standstill. Really like the plan against shops, got to play Brian Kelly while he wasn't on oath, and won a lot of games without ever activating Survival. Overall, really fun! Great list you put together @wfain ! Slots I'm going to play with are Leovold (for Kambal) and Wispmare (for Chains of Mephastopheles), but the list really does feel very powerful.
@bleedth3sky good video, thanks for sharing!! Showcasing the strengths of this deck: explosiveness, being a rogue strategy that is hard to board against, and how good this deck is when you forget that bazaar is not a spell and should count as your land drop (game 2, turn 1 was quite busted in part bc Ross played bazaar and then another land and spirit guide to play Bob haha). That matchup is often close, but Czech needs to have early countermagic and then cards to grind with. Force into Bob or ancestral is good, esp with drs backup. But even if they do, they still need to be able to answer the initial salvo from our end.
@wfain Just finished a 5-0 league to get a Bant list posted
I am really liking it. Mana base is real smooth and I feel like I have tools for every matchup. Obviously it's vintage, so some games just turn into blowouts no matter what, but the deck is starting to feel like a well oiled machine. I like containment priest and swords as versatile SB options.
-3 thalias, -judge's familiar, -2 spell queller, -chalice, -thorn, -1 survival.
+3 energy flux, +2 stony, +2 claim, +1 plow, +manglehorn
-goyf, -mandrils, -chalice, -1 squee, -3/4 noble, -1 spell queller
+2 claim, +plow, +manglehorn, +3 rav traps, +2 priest
Against Blue (no dack, no drs)
-manglehorn, -1/2 noble (trim Hollow against dack, squee against drs)
+2 natures claim, +plow maybe
+traps, +stony, +manglehorn (+plow +1/2 priest against mentor/tinker)
-3/4 noble, -goyf, -mandrills
Edit: adjusted SB notes a bit. Also just finished two more leagues, both at 4-1.
@thecravenone fantastic!! were you on the Bant version or 4-color?
dredge matchup is a little swingy. I wanted the priests because i wanted to help there and maybe get a few more percentage points against oath. I've found that the die roll matters a ton. Dredge will probably kill you turn 2 unimpeded, but we can also kill around turn 2 or 3 as well with an aggressive draw. Post board, if you don't have a super aggressive hand just having a single trap isn't always enough (especially since i'm off the DRS plan).
I'm probably going to stream a little bit tonight and possibly tomorrow if anyone wants to come hang out! https://www.twitch.tv/kaluma47
@neo_altoid nice. I got browned 3 matches in a row against the same PO player with a more controlly build, but I think it was a little bit variance. I racked up another 5-0 in the next league, but without facing PO. With a few kind ppl splitting, i'm somehow currently trophy leader!
here's where i'm at on the list:
20 slots: Survival Package - 4x VV, HO, Rootwalla, Bazaar, Survival. Probably need all these, although i trim to 3's of some of these post board when going for a more controlling plan.
17 slots: permanent mana sources, including on color moxen, lotus, one basic. In wasteland heavy metas you probably want more lands. This is the lowest I would go, but I do cut basic forest against decks post board.
8 slots: blue interaction, 4x misstep, FoW. You get to play like a delver deck it's great.
4 slots: blue slam dunks, ancestral, time walk, treasure cruise, wonder. You need blue cards, these are the best ones.
The rest of the deck (11 slots left) need to have at least 5 blue cards for 17 total. All the missteps make you a bit weaker to shops in g1's as well, so you probably want to make sure the majority of other cards have some utility there. I think 1 squee is necessary - it's just so good as a filtering mechanism with bazaar or as a guarantee to keep SoTF each turn. I also think you need at least 1 spirit guide, as it opens up a lot of survival lines. Deathrite is obviously the best mana dork in these colors. There are times he doesnt make mana, but the times he wins the survival mirror makes up for that.
So for the final 11 slots I say:
1x Spirit Guide
3-4x Deathrite - DRS 4 is i would think a flex slot. It's good vs shops, in the mirror, in grindy games, when ramping to 3 drops, and making non-engine hands playable etc. That being said, if you need to make room for an extra actual land/mox or blue card this seems like a place you can look.
5x blue cards: Leovold certainly makes the cut. I think trygon is good enough against shops, slower outcome hands, slower oath hands, and the mirror to warrant a slot. You do need blue cards post board against shops to make FoW playable, and trygon is palatable in the most matchups. I could see arguments for JaceVP, Brainstorm, Probe, Daze, Phantasmal Image, extra Leovold/Trygon, Ponder, Hurkyls, Fluster, Prized Amalgam (probably not good enough without a lot of other slots dedicated to this plan). Non-blue options could be null rods main, chalice of the void, sylvan library, etc.
So I definitely agree this list has not been as tuned as other survival lists, but on the other hand there doesn't seem to be a ton of slots to play with. As got posted the other day, I ended up on 2 leo, 4 drs, trygon, brainstorm, jace, squee, spirit guide as those last 11 slots. It might not be "optimal" but it's been real solid!
IN: 2 claims, 3 rav traps, 1 decay, maybe 1 priest.
OUT: 1 forest (or savannah if no priest), 4 force of wills, 1 flusterstorm
IN: 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap, 2 energy flux (mostly bc it's blue, situationally good, but don't think this is a great card.)
OUT: 1 savannah, 1-2 Deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 0-1 survival, 0-1 squee.
IN: 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap (easy enough to turn on with snapcasters and stuff) 0-2 claims (if you see or suspect leyline. probably bring them in against white for RiP)
OUT: 1-2 Hollow One, 1 Phantasmal Image, 0-1 Savannah (depending on how much you bring in, if you see wasteland)
IN: 1 decay, 2 claims, 2 energy flux, 2 null rod, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 4 force of will, 2 misstep, 1 flusterstorm, 1 treasure cruise (you're left with some bad cards still in the deck, but misstep can hit SB hate like cage or relic)
IN: 3 priests, 2 claims, 1 decay, 1 mindbreak trap
OUT: 1 forest, 1-2 deathrite, 1 rootwalla, 1 vengevine, 1 squee, 1 wonder.
these are some guidelines. SB'ing with BUG is generally trickier than SB'ing with the other versions. There is a lot more "shaving" and you need to keep track of your blue count for Force (or side FoW out and not worry). 17 blue cards is the lowest i would go and still think there is a reasonable chance of casting a force of will. I play 18 blue cards main, and can SB up to a few more when having FoW is important.
so i know not many people were ever on this deck, but anyone still playing rector flash? I built it on MTGO and ran a lot of practice matches and two leagues and it is suuuuper fun. The two leagues i played both ended up 4-1, playing against all blue decks.
i've liked a version without oath and about 2 show and tells maindeck fwiw.
@bleedth3sky I'm playing 2 savannah, 2 trop, 2 bayou, forest, cradle, 6 fetches, 2 spirit guides, 4 mox + lotus as the mana base right now for the red-less build. I agree having double blue is important with energy flux as your shops plan (and wonder as you said). and there are other annoying wasteland decks like landstill or BUG/ czech pile that also attack your lands, plus the fact that you spew lands with bazaar a lot of the time - redundancy is really nice. Also, i never really liked riftstone portal as it is too cute and situational as well as awkward against some SB cards you face.
played a couple leagues the last few days without anger and went 2-3 then 4-1. first league was all oath decks and managed to go 1-2 against them and all the games felt surprisingly close. lots of oaths on an empty board without orchard and then long drawn out games maneuvering around that. squee shined one game with bazaar. really though, even tho the games were close, it made it clear that a lot of things had to go right to even stay in the game. second league played combo, czech, eldrazi and shops twice. lost to montolio one match, but overall felt really good. I like most of what the deck is trying to do
My plan against dack decks (blue fair decks really) is +2 decay, +thalia, +chains, -1 hollow, -manglehorn, -2 others depending on what I suspect their plan is. Trimming Mana guys against wrath's, squee drs or goyf against RiP etc. Hollow one is too explosive and good as a bazaar threat / survival chain ender to cut too many even if it feels bad to have one stolen.
My shops plan has been +3 Stony, +2 energy flux, +nature's claim, +1 decay, -thalia, -2 kambal, -thorn, -chalice, -bob, -1 survival. The sideboard cards are real good. Survival is awkward to cast and can be revokered. The big idiots plan is actually ok without sb cards sometimes.
After a couple medium leagues I managed to get another 5-0, this time testing out the red-less build but with two squee instead of any dark confidants. Squee is great against slower decks game 1 in particular and lets you bazaar with more abandon. He's not ideal against deathrites that are popping up everywhere, but that's the trade off. I also slotted in a second thalia over the second tarmogoyf, which for future leagues means i might swap in a containment priest for the SB thalia as a card against dredge and oath which are both a little dicey. At this point I feel like the deck is solid, just deciding what to hedge against. To note, haven't really missed anger at all yet and nature's claim in the board is a real card against UW & rest in peace.
also, shout out to Hornet Queens for repping in the VSL!! Tight games against a fairly poor matchup unfortunately.
hey yall! been off vintage for a while (was getting hit by the bad side of variance with the bant list, other life stuff, then playing no-DRS legacy), but glad to catch up on this thread! The super blue version looks really cool. I independently ended up on a really similar Gruw style list. If outcome is being touted as the best deck and pushing oath out of the way then might as well play a version thats much better against PO. I'll post a pic of what i played. Just got a 4-1 only losing to outcome even after triple grudging him with lethal on board haha. Grudge main is in a pretty good spot and since it doubles against shops you can play fewer dorky beaters that are lackluster against other decks. Plow i think is underrated as a SB card - very versatile and efficient.
edit - got another 4-1, only losing to dredge. really liking grudge so far!
ended up playing four leagues tonight and it was a TON of fun. lots of shops online, handful of blue control/creature decks, two PO matchups, one storm, and one dredge. ended up 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, 5-0 so hopefully the list gets posted [edit - already posted this morning, sweet!] ! i changed the grudge in the board to a second Plow for the last league for more 1 mana interaction against shops and a hedge against creatures.
overall this list felt much better against outcome (as planned - grudge keeps them from going too too broken with fast mana and thalia as always is solid if it hits play. the shops matchup becomes kind of a joke - you have beefy guys AND grudge preboard and then postboard you have MORE interaction and haymakers. I still lost a match to shops even still. blue control you don't have really any SB for, but you also don't need much of a SB for them.
as for downsides - i miss the Bant manabase. having to choose which splash color to fetch for is kind of a crapshoot (you want all three splashes against shops for example) and fetching basic(s) becomes almost worse than getting wastelanded. Also as mentioned above, dredge seems to be on a loam style plan so maybe crypt or something over a containment priest would be better. or even something like remorseful cleric?
I was tempted to try the zombie list and bought gravecrawlers, but it'll have to be another day
like a lot of the ideas being tossed around here. just finished a 4-1 league with my only loss to @GutoCmtt in the mirror match
SB'ing for me has been something like:
shops: -thalias, thorn, chalice, queller, anger, 1 survival... +plows, claim, stony, flux
PO: -birds, forest, mandrills, anger, 1 squee?... +stony, mindbreak trap, claim, plows. GY hate can be okay if they show theyre on a yawgwill version; remorseful cleric is one of my GY sb slots now so that is an option.
Dredge: -birds, chalice, queller, mandrills, forest, thorn... +plows, claim, traps, priests/crypt/remoseful cleric etc.
Blue: -1 bird, 1 hollow one (against red), maybe chalice... +plows, claim, maybe remorseful cleric.
I managed to 5-0 this weekend with a DRS heavy build my brother was borrowing some modern cards from my account, so tweaked my list to be 4.5 colors with heavy hate for PO. Maybe it's just the times I play, but shops seems to have been hated out of the meta a little. skimming on hard shops hate like energy flux for pyroblasts seems better in the current environment, especially with grudges main that matchup should still be fine.
played against pyromancer, oath, PO, PO, storm (i think, only really saw usea, badlands, and a chain of vapor game 2).
grudge felt good, pyroblast made me feel safer but i'm not really sure if i ever cast one. ingot chewer was solid for blowing things up or just a creature to cast for VV. feel like i won against some unfavorable matchups, in part by dodging the "FoW into kill you" type plays in the opening turns. resolving thalias and null rods feels good!
so stupid idea time:
i really like the engine of bazaar, squee, grudge, etc. and i feel like leaning even harder on those synergies could good if you could more reliably see bazaar. What do yall think of playing a crop rotation, with maybe access to a utility land or two (possibly in the board - thinking karakas, cradle, bog, strip mine as options.)
obviously the downsides are misstep and deck slots, but you are already pretty good against misstep decks in general, and crop rot could add some consistency toward finding an engine card.