This whole finals was super disappointing. The decks chosen were just aweful piles of garbage on Eric's side and they were basically just "Shuhei Haterade." These decks give new vintage players no real clue as to what one should take to a large event and as a hatebear/human pilot the first list was, quite frankly, insulting. 4 Cages maindeck and your largest threat of damage being a 3/2 will not fly at a real vintage event.
I don't agree at all. Although the matches wasn't the greatest of the season, I think the finals was entertaining, especially the matches where Eric played White Trash. Honestly, if you want to blame anyone, blame Shuhei and not Eric. Eric made a clever choice of creating a White Trash deck that beats the shit out of Oath because Shuhei had been playing Oath in every single match. It was a great metagame choice. I have no idea how many "new vintage players" even watch these games, but I think it's a good thing to let potential new players know that Vintage isn't always only about playing the best spells ever printed but actually to think about the metagame and go from there.
She's priced right. But the plus one is pretty weak. The minus 2 can do a lot more than people think. Copying oath or tinker targets is kind of win more, but it also would probably immediately win many games. Play black lotus, copy it, make six mana, cast consecrated sphinx, that's a thing.
I think it's a good card. Probably not good enough though.
Why don't you just cast Consecrated Sphinx with Lotus and the 3 mana you used to cast this dude?
My local playgroup had a small tournament this weekend and I decided to bring a few of the new cards in a 4 color hatebear deck. I never playtested the deck before the tournament so I didn't really know what to expect. There's not really much theory behind the build and I really only just wanted to try out some stuff, so I'm sure it can be improved in various slots. Also note that this is from memory so I might be a card or two off.
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Containment Priest
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath
1 Tropical Island
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Containment Priest
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mental Misstep
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Path to Exile
1 Illness in the Ranks
2 Nature's Claim
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Trygon Predator
Match 1: Grixis Pyromancer: 2-1 WIN
Game 1: I resolve a turn 1 Thalia and a turn 2 Confidant. He resolves a turn 2 Pyromancer but I Decay it. Turn 4 I play a Sanctum Prelate for 1 and the game is pretty much over.
Game 2: He gets down a turn 1 Pyromancer and I don't find anything to fight back.
Game 3: I play turn 1 Hierarch into turn 2 Leo which gets Bolted. He gets down a Pyromancer which beats down with its token friends for a few turns, but I manage to Vampiric for Illness in the Ranks with Misstep backup. I clean the game up a few turns later.
Match 2: Jeskai Mentor: 1-2 LOSS
Game 1: He gets down a turn 1 Mentor and I have no answers.
Game 2: I don't remember much here, but my path to victory included Sanctum Prelate for 1.
Game 3: This one was pretty close the first many turns and we end up in topdeck mode. He wins when he topdecks Treasure Cruise into Mentor and Time Walk.
Match 3: Oath: 2-0 WIN
Game 1: I know my opponent usually is on Oath so I mulligan to look for Decay, Prelate or Priest. My 5 card hand has Priest so I'm all set. It turns out to be lucky that I mulliganed to find an answer because he leads with turn 1 Oath. I draw Cavern to make my Priest uncounterable. He never finds an answer so I ride my bears to victory.
Game 2: I draw good and keep a hand with Lotus, Prelate, Cage and Priest and I have no trouble winning.
Match 4: Some Storm variant: 2-1 WIN
Game 1: have a slow hand and lose to a turn 2 or 3 kill.
Game 2: I resolve a turn 1 Thalia and a turn 2 Leo. My opponent manages to get rid of Leo but i Demonic for Eidolon and beats him down before he finds another answer.
Game 3: I keep a somewhat sketchy hand which only has Thalia as a thread. My opponent's hand is pretty slow though, and I draw into Confidant which finds me Mindcensor and Vamp which finds me Eidolon.
Match 5: Eldrazi: 1-2 LOSS
Game 1: I face a turn 1 Thought-Knot Seer and turn 2 Reality Smasher.
Game 2: I have a very good hand with Demonic, Nature's Claim and Trygon. However, my opponent locks me out for a few turns and starts beating down with a Thalia 2.0 and I'm close to 0 life when I finally get to resolve my Demonic to find an answer for Thalia 2.0. From here on we get into a topdeck war which I manage to climb out of on top when I draw a Tasigur.
Game 3: My opponent resolves a turn 1 Lodestone which beats me down to 3 life until I manage to Swords it. He plays some more creatures which I manage to take care of as well back I'm always on my back heels this game. He eventually resolves a Reality Smasher which I can't beat.
Overall the deck was really fun and demanding to play. It felt pretty good but lacking a bit of fire power against Mentor and Eldrazi which I feared in advance. It also seems a bit soft to Workshops at least in the maindeck. Sanctum Prelate and Leo were both incredible, but I'm not sure they actually belong in the same deck because of the mana requirements. I only once or twice was mana screwed, but it's hard to tell how much is due to variance. Revoker was very underwhelming and I think it should be replaced with something more powerful, but I'm not really sure what. Perhaps Thalia 2.0 or another Tasigur or even Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary could be possibilities. Mindcensor and Containment Priest could also go to the sideboard or be replaced with something else and more powerful.
I want to apologize if I've sounded harsh or condescending in my previous posts, it wasn't my intention to come off that way.
Anyway, I just wanted to appreciate the effort you guys put into this kind of deck, and I really like the theory of going "all human" to make as many spells uncounterable as possible. That said, I'm not sure this type of deck is where you want to be at the moment with all the Mentor and Eldrazi and as important because of these decks all the creature removal floating around at the moment.
I would probably look towards Magus of the Moon right now, but obviously that's a completely different deck.
Who cares if you call it card draw spells or card draw engines? It's the same anyway. People play Gush over TFK because it fits into their deck much better. People play TFK over Gush because it fits into their deck much better. No one plays Fact or Fiction because it sucks.
Great primer and as a long time White Trash player (since 2010-2011), I would love to see the deck do well. However, unfortunately the deck isn't very well positioned right now. As you mention, Mentor is the worst matchup and Mentor is all over the place. Honestly, this deck has less than 30% against Mentor in various forms. Eldrazi is also a very bad matchup and it's on the rise as well (until people find out that Eldrazi actually sucks).
I don't agree entirely on your assessment of the matchups. Oath isn't a good matchup, especially with the configuration you propose (but let me get back to that). It's winnable, but we're not a favorite to win. Shops isn't an easy matchup either. Pre-board you're a big underdog but post-board you're favored. However, usually you have to win both post-board games, which isn't easy to do.
I also don't agree that the deck is very forgiving. Because of the lack of pure power you have to play very tight, and mistakes are a lot harder to recover from than in many other decks. That said, once you learn the basics the deck is pretty straight forward to play and definitely not very complex in comparison with most other decks.
On some specific cards:
Mental Misstep: I've been back and fourth on this, and I never really came to a conclusion. I do think it's better now than when I played the deck a lot.
Abolish: You 100% need to play this card in a deck with no Cavern of Souls. Improves your Shops matchup dramatically.
Serenity: This card was also very good for me. Basically my plan against shops was to Abolish/Swords/Relic their threads until I could resolve a Serenity and from there it's usually pretty easy.
Stoneforge Mystic package: I found that this is not the route you wanna take. Fighting on power/toughness is not the way to go. It also takes up too many slots and have bad synergy with Arbiter and Stony Silence
Aven Mindcensor: This is another card that needs consideration. I think that my most succesful builds played 4 Arbiter and 2 Mindcensors.
Kataki, War's Wage: Yet another card that needs consideration. Not only because of the Shops matchup, but it also does a pretty good job against artifact acceleration and other stuff. Not a necessity though.
Acceleration in general: You need some sort of acceleration in your deck. Spirit Guides are good enough.
Grafdigger's Cage: I can't believe this card hasn't been mentioned yet. If there was one thing I found out playing this deck is that Grafdigger's is absolute necessary as a maindeck card. It stops Tinker and Oath - two of our biggest obstacles - and Yawgmoth's Will and hoses Dredge. That said, it's probably not as good now as it once was. You have replaced it with Militant, but in my experience, Militant isn't doing enough and it's a bad late game draw.
I hope you do well with the deck, there are not many better things in Vintage than beating your opponent with Plains
Interestingly, I always found Stony Silence to be underwhelming against Shops. Of course a lot have changed since I played this deck and Shops has gone from 4 Lodestone/4 Metamorph to Ravager/Triskellion type of builds against which Stony Silence of course is a lot better. That said, Triskellion and Ravager are a real pain in the ass if you don't get down a Stony Silence. You're totally tight that Waste effects are really good against Shops though. At one point I even played 7 main deck Strip effects (Strip + 4 Waste + 2 Ghost Quarter) with two more Ghost Quarters in the sideboard (and it worked quite well with my 4 Arbiter + 2 Mindcensors), and in combination with Stony Silence, that's pretty good. The main problem is that you often get under a lot of pressure even before you can get down your Stony Silence (this was especially true in the pre-Lodestone-restriction era).
Regarding Grafdigger's Cage, I played this maindeck before Containment Priest was printed. I would definitely play 4 Containment Priests and no Grafdigger's Cage maindeck now - of course that's tough in a budget build.
I agree with you on Relic Warder. I don't think I've ever played less than 3 maindeck with 1 sideboard. That doesn't exclude Abolish though.
You almost make me want to sleeve up a White Trash deck again, but as mentioned, I don't think it's very well positioned right now.
In a deck like White Trash, I'd say Vryn Wingmare and Glowrider are strict updates even though they get hit by mass removals like you mention. It's not a big deal that you can't play them on turn 1 as you have a lot of other turn 1 plays (although Wizard do seem to be producing a lot of 3cc creatures for White Trash, which makes this statement less true). Also remember that Thorn doesn't cost 2 a lot of the time.
I do agree that these "hybrid" decks you link to might be the best hatebear shell out there (as I've said many times in various threads that White Trash isn't really viable at the moment) and that Thorn is probably better in this shell.
Without maindeck plows it's rough so I'm going back to 4 maindeck plows now. Stony + Removal + Wastelands is how you beat shops. Mayor is also an all-star in that matchup and vs. Eldrazi. Thalia 2.0 same. It's very winnable, but going to be swingy based on opening draws.
I agree that those cards goes a long way in beating Shops, but Eldrazi and Shops are two different kind of animals. In my experience, this strategy simply doesn't cut it. Eldrazi is a hatebear deck itself and the main problem is that it plays bigger creatures than you/we do. Mayor does seem like a nice starting point, although I suspect it's not enough.
Mentor and Pyro get locked out by Prelate / Teeg or multiple Prelates. Their deck is just Grey Ogres and Goblin Pikers. That being said if I'm in Black there's no way I don't have at least a couple of token hosers in the board. Intrepid Hero, Shriekmaw, BGH and Crackdown are reasonable Eldrazi answers. I think that any thorn deck with smaller dudes is a dog to Eldrazi game one regardless. Banisher Priest is decent, I think a priority for a dude deck fighting Eldrazi is making sure to deal with Displacer, either through Strip Mining, killing the thing or Needling it.
I disagree with a lot of what you say here. Mentor doesn't get locked out by Prelate/Teeg enough of the time to make it a good enough answer to Mentor. Also, as big a fan of Teeg as I am, it's more redundant now than ever because of Prelate, Cavern, Bowie etc. I'd argue that you're doing something wrong if you play Gaddock these days. I also don't agree that Displacer is what you want to be dealing with as your main priority if you're facing Eldrazi. I obviously do agree that any deck with smaller dudes is a dog to Eldrazi game one, which is why I ask what the plan is as I haven't yet come up with an answer. I simply haven't found, or seen anyone who has, a decent strategy being it maindeck or sideboard against Eldrazi.