@tribet Would you consider Night's Whisper in Preordain's slots, this card seems good in my limited testings.

@protoaddct said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

Restricting workshops could, for instance, make colorless eldrazi a much more attractive option in the format, since right now it does not see play since it is considered a mostly inferior version of what shops was doing. Colorless eldrazi just so happened to be a pretty decent check to decks that run Misstep, since most lists runs no 1 drops, and run Cavern of souls to make FOW much less powerful, and therefore also devaluing MM even further since you cant use it as convenient pitch fodder. So maybe restricting shops has a cascading effect that adjusts the meta so MM is not such a powerhouse.

Let me break it down into

1. restricting Workshop making Eldrazi more playable
2. more playable Eldrazi rendering MM restriction unnecessary.

Regarding 1, restriction of Workshop will not make Eldrazi more (or less) playable, at least I cannot see it how. If I have to make a stretch, it just suggests that the vacant where the Shop decks left will be occupied by inferior choices, be it 'Colorless Eldrazi' or any other decks, but not necessarily make any other deck more competitive or better position. In contrast, storm deck is better positioned if Shop decks are gone.

For point 2, if Shop occupied more 50% of the meta, MM will be irrelevant more often than not as well.

Thank you for the report, it is a nice read.

Just out of curiosity, isn't snapcaster mage a better card than recoup?

@evouga I am not sure whether or not it is a misnomer, but at least it is an aggro deck in a wider sense (I believe tempo is a kind of aggro, there is seldom a 'pure' aggro deck in vintage or even in any format). For example, Eldrazi is an aggro for me notwithstanding playing TKS, null rod, Chalice and wasteland. I digress.

I just don't see the rationale why the shop is too good given it is now having a hard time to stop the opponent playing anything. Modern affinity is just an analogy (admittedly not perfect) invites discussions. Modern is a much slower format with a much smaller and weaker card pool but it can deal with a T4 aggro deck.

My all-time favourite is Grixis pyromancer which is no longer playable after restriction of probe and gush. I admit I may be biased against any (further) restriction. But I don't want to see vintage to become a 60-card edh.

@chubbyrain This is exactly what I was trying to say, how a Turn 3 aggro deck trouble vintage, particularly this is a format we can play turn-1 decks and cards like lotus, moxen, A-call, time walk and such?

@bobbyvictory said in The Curious Case of Mishra's Workshop:

@jsakpc Vintage has mishra's workshop + ancient tomb, modern has neither. THis increases the rate at which shops can dump their hand. Vintage also uses ballista.
YOur opponent either has the card they need in the first 3 turns or they don't. Hurkyl's doesn't help much at all since shops can drop it's entire hand again the following turn due to foundry inspector being busted. It literally only buy's 1-2 turns.

With respect, I have to disagree. Modern affinity is a turn-4-clock deck while vintage ravager aggro is a turn-3. And modern is a format where force of will, wasteland, time walk etc are illegal but in vintage we can play moxen ourselves. There is nothing about the tempo. Vintage TPS can win in turn 1. It is not the case that shop doesnt allow interaction but simply some players rather play magic on stack thank deal with the board. The proposition of shop being too broken, imho, is just a disguise of their preference.

The reason why today's shop is the fastest shop in the history attributed to the multiple restrictions in the past few years.

People were whining being locked out and could not play magic. Lock pieces restricted. Now shop becomes an affinity comparable in modern, and now it is complained too explosive.

It is unbelievable that modern can handle affinity but vintage cannot handle shop, given shop can rarely tax you from playing any hate cards like energy flux or Huryl's recall or likes. Or, are blue mages so uncomfortable to pack more removals instead of pyroblasts?

I understood some prefer blue vs blue all the day like in legacy, but it is vintage and kicking shop out of the top tier won't make the meta 'healthier'.

Does null rod effect stop crewing of vehicles? If not, there provide a path to beat the hate.

While restriction of LSG definitely weakens aggro version of shop, but I still believe the aggro version or more precisely playing tempo games is more competitive.
Instead of completely lock out the opponents, more realistic approach is combination of pressure to their lives plus sphere effect. We need to seal the game fast enough before their hates or bombs taking over.

Below is the list I am playing post-ban, which works out the best among other variants (Uba, Martello) in my limited testing
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arcbound Ravager
1 Black Lotus
1 Lodestone Golem
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
3 Porcelain Legionnaire
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
3 Triskelion
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 Wurmcoil Engine

I would not say the banning is overrated, but shop players may be overreacted to make drastic changes.

Greeting