@brass-man said in February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement:

@chubbyrain Ah, I think I get you. If you're saying that it's a bad idea to print risky vintage cards with the idea that they can be restricted or fixed with another printing later, I guess I have to agree! I do think it's easy to look at the few mistakes WotC makes and ignore the hundreds of bad metagames they fixed before we saw them ... but vintage does have a longer tail, so the potential downside is bigger here.

From my perspective, answer cards only have the risk that they don't work. Artifact removal that isn't affected by tax effects isn't likely to break Vintage. Grafdigger's Cage hasn't broken the format, for example.

@brass-man We might just share a similar addiction.

On that point, one-for-one against Shops isn't bad if the spell can be cast for normal cost (i.e., through Channel or Bloodrush mechanics that avoid tax effects (but do NOT avoid Revoker, I believe, which creates nuance).

Dack Fayden is a very good example. Grafdigger's Cage (SB card) and Containment Priest (MD in White Eldrazi) are others. Containment Priest is nicer to me because (to my mind) it helped bolster an archetype. Harsh Mentor had that kind of potential, but wasn't quite impactful enough.

I would love to see a Goblin, Elf or Zombie with an anti-Shops or anti-Xerox power.

@mdkubiak I am definitely cognizant of the fact that WOTC doesn't really spend time designing for Vintage or Legacy for that matter. There is practically no economic incentive for them to do that.

Because I have seen people discussing Damping Sphere on Eternal Facebook groups and it's relevance to Vintage/Legacy, I was more making the point that the card doesn't achieve relevance.

More than anything, we need NEW cards that combat the two primary power centers of Vintage: blue Xerox and Shops w/tax effects. Damping Sphere in Dominaria appears to have been a valiant, but comically-bad attempt at that. I seriously wonder what genius said to themselves, "This will stop Xerox AND Shops."

Wizards needs to print cards in B/R/G that counteract the dominance of Shops and Xerox (I exclude White because it already has most of the hate bears and functions as a lesser-Shops with less vulnerability to artifact removal).

We need Root Maze on a (cheap, not the 3cmc Thalia) creature. We need Naturalize as a Channel ability on a card. We need cards that come out early to hamper Xerox (cheap, not the 3cmc Leovold). A red creature that makes instants and sorceries cost 1 more. A green creature that makes artifacts cost 1 more (tax the tax deck). A black card that does something else Vintage-relevant, like 1cmc spells cost 1 more (weird, but maybe it would work). If they can print Cage to nerf Dredge and Oath (in a surprisingly flavorful way), they can spend a few slots on cards to hit the two strongest engines of Vintage.

At this stage of the game, every color should have tier-1.5 card selection and counter (in a color-appropriate flavor). There should be a green "Force of Wildness" that pitches like FoW to counter artifacts or enchantments, for example. A black instant that says, "For each card target player would draw this turn, they must discard a card or sacrifice a permanent instead."

Blue can be the best at selection and counter, but the other colors shouldn't be cut off entirely. Blue has been given the best cards and then has fetch/duals to splash their win conditions (Mentor, Oath/creature, Tinker/Blightsteel, Tendrils, etc.). The only reliable counterbalance has been a broken land and all the tax effects that are fit to print. Ravagers Shops has the challenge of its ability to anything in response to removal, but if you could afford to cast more than one removal spell in a given turn (due to tax effects) you might have a shot.

I'll stop there for now, since I have to go to work in the morning.

I've noticed a shift lately to Unmask/Leyline Dredge vs. Pitch Dredge. Curious to know people's thoughts.

I've found that with aggro Workshop being a tough matchup, the ability to land a Leyline of the Void is huge. I also have found that Serenity has been a terrible SB card for me. Arcbound + Mishra's or Ballista make it much less effective of a sweeper.

The Dread Return package is usually the first thing I cut, so I'm glad to learn that is how others approach it. I usually cut my lone Golgari Thug, too.

I have only infrequently sided out Serum Powder because I thought it was essential to the deck. I guess I will have to reconsider.

Post-Board, are there any hands people consider keeping where you don't have Bazaar? Sometimes I have a hand with good counters and/or anti-hate cards and I wonder if I should just keep. I don't want to over-assume the criticality of Bazaar, but then again it's almost hard not to.

Ahhhh, thank you! I had auto-yielded the triggers, so I didn't notice. Another sign that I should really go to sleep.

Yes, good games as always!

I just played a match where my opponents played Balance against me as I'm playing Dredge with a ton of creatures and zombie tokens out. When I had to choose a creature, I chose a Narcomoeba.

But then after Balance resolved, all of my zombie tokens remained. That's a bug, right? Balance doesn't say creature cards, does it?

A quick Google search didn't really answer my question, so I came here.

I'm relatively new to playing Dredge and I've taken a liking to Hollow Ones in the sideboard (along with 3 Anglers).

When you sideboard out cards for your anti-hate, or win conditions that rely less on the GY, what do you take out?

I don't understand fully which cards are best to remove and why.

Just got back into MTGO Vintage with the advent of the new leagues. I've tried Punishing Oath 4 times and Saheeli Oath once.

Saheeli Oath still feels way too clunky in spite of recent restrictions--the threat package is just too many cards. Not particularly happy with Punishing Oath, either. I have only played one Shops deck and instead have faced a ton of Paradoxical Outcome decks.

What play style do most people adopt? Sometimes Oath feels like it should play as a control deck, but then my hand is always full of crap. When I go aggro, I just get hit with multiple hate cards. I have died with zero artifact kills in the face to 2 Grafdigger's Cages waayyy too many times this past week.