Any list with this needs Dark Ritual, and probably other fast mana (Elvish Spirit Guide?). So I'd add that.
I'd add 2 more Ouphes, 1 Null Rod, and 1 Chalice of the Void. Need to deny their moxen.
Cut Liliana too slow. Cut Demonic, and the Symetries. Also too slow.
I'd try with the 3 Maralen, but probably cut that 1 eventually. That's just a random finisher for the game. You need a lock before you can play her.
I don't think I would ever cut Demonic Tutor. I can't see how it's ever too slow, especially with rituals. And Scheming Symmetry seems great also.
I'm looking at blowout lines of play such as... flash Agent EOT (or earlier in the turn depending), and on your turn cast Symmetry, find your best card, find their best card (ancestral?) Their ancestral doesn't go on top of their library, it's exiled and you can play it and pay any color mana (notably for this deck, B.)
Friends and I have been testing mono red gob list. Basically an aggro list with red blast and null rod for disruption.
Snoop is a great value engine, and theres minimal deckspace requirement to run a copy of kiki and mogg fanatic.
We do not run ringleader or matron, both engines are too slow for vintage we've determined.
Yes, I've also been testing a mono-red goblins list. I do run 1-of Ringleader and Matron, just because I like the flexibility. But they are a bit slower. I'm also running 4x Blood Moon as disruption, because if it hits the battlefield, it's exceptional.
Also, I think this is a VERY consistent turn 2 kill. Eg. Turn 1 Recruiter (Snoop, Torch Courier, Kiki), Turn 2 play Snoop, Play Courier, Sac Courier, Go Infinite, Copy Recruiter to put Fanatic on top. I think some combination of Lightning Bolt and countermagic disrupts most of the disruption, too.
You need RRR on turn 2, which isn't necessarily a consistent turn 2 line of play. I think you need Mox Ruby to facilitate the turn 2 win, because if you opened with Black Lotus, you'd have cracked in T1 for the Recruiter.
Have people not considered this for Hermit Druid decks? With the new Mulligan rule and this, getting a turn one Hermit (especially with 4-8 Guides) seems very strong.
I play a Hermit druid deck, and I'll be testing some number of these. Hermit druid decks can already mulligan aggressively, so I see this card as an interesting option.
What’s crazy is restricting Mystic Forge and expecting to have any lasting impact. You are band-aiding the real problem in that Vintage manabases are too consistently powerful.
Workshops can consistently drop a 4 CC spell on turn 1/2. Dredge can consistently mulligan to a single card and then hit creatures on its first dredge. Blue can consistently fix a 3 or 4 color manabase with basics. These break fundamental balancing rules that cards are printed with in mind now as none of these mechanics are returning.
What will be printed is another Mystic Forge.
While you’ve provided an explanation, your reasoning is going in so many directions I can’t even follow your logic.
1.) Why would you restrict Narcomoeba? Your primary argument is restricting mana bases.
2.) I am confused by “blue can consistently fix a 3 or 4 color mana base...” If I assume you mean decks that are built primarily using blue cards, I still don’t understand your explanation. Every deck can utilize mana fixing/fetching if needed. If you are specifically mentioning blue because of the powerful blue cards that have been printed, that’s why we have a restricted list. If your original argument is that the restricted list is a band-aid and the mana bases are the real problem, then would it be fine if WOTC printed another Ancestral Recall or Demonic Tutor with restricted dual lands?
3.) That last point bring me to my final area of confusion: to which fundamental balancing rules are you referring?
I'd also like to add that I've been in scenarios when I've had to hard-cast Griselbrand. This would be delayed because I needed to build to the BBBB color requirement. Vilis, however, is slightly easier to hard-cast because of the BBB requirement (I'm looking at you, Black Lotus.)
Not that this is a reason for me to play this card over Griselbrand (or to even play it along with Griselbrand,) but it's something to consider.
Great show, as usual! The number of powerful and interesting cards in Modern Horizons is staggering.
One small note: In the introduction to Hogaak, Kevin correctly states the casting cost of 5 B/G B/G, but then when he's evaluating the card he incorrectly identifies that you need creatures that are "....either black or red."
This errors leads you to the response that it's difficult to cast in Survival builds, because of the restrictive red requirement.
However, because it's black or green, I think the cards is much better in Survival than was evaluated in the podcast.
@thewhitedragon69 I'm pretty sure Narset does much more than Chains. She doesn't "only" impede drawing (which I contend is a bigger impediment than you're presuming,) but she also offers exceptional card selection, sometimes chaining into another Narset.
Narset allows you to see 8 cards into the deck (with two activations,) while at the same time inhibiting the opponent's draws.
I am currently testing this card on MTGO, and it's been fantastic so far! I'm not sure if I should call my deck Storm with Belcher, or Belcher with Storm, but it's both.
It's essentially a storm shell, with no Bargain, and 3-4 Bolas's Citadel. I'm currently using Land Grant, a singleton Bayou, and Tolarian Academy.
I can't post a list because it's been changing multiple times each day, but I will say that the deck (and Bolas's Citadel) have far exceeded my expectations, in every aspect.