Best posts made by garbageaggro
posted in Vintage Community read more

This thread is awful, and makes me not want to be part of this community, which I thought had been the one part of the magic playing community that wasn't full of this kind of vitriol.

Abe is a good guy, and if you think he isn't being attacked in this thread, I think you haven't been reading all the posts. He has repeatedly asked for whatever additional rules violations the community has supposedly rooted out. He has also (much more calmly than I would have) responded to most of them, and shown them to be fallacious.

I don't think this "public outcry" is accomplishing anything, but getting a lot of people less excited about hanging out with the vintage community, and that really sucks.

posted in TheManaDrain Metadiscussion read more

Deckstats has a bunch of different formats you can use to nicely display decklists, I don't think any of them work on the boards. It can help especially if they have built in links to cards etc.

The other thing I think would be a nice feature is the ability to auto-highlight/link magic cards by name and some way to type mana symbols, numbers. I just think it looks nice on reddit/slack emoji replacement.

posted in Tournament Reports read more

What a great event. Thanks to @hazard for hosting.

You can watch video coverage here (warning explicit language):


Tournament Achieved, we ended up with 24 people to celebrate Matt Hazard's birthday with a great tournament.

The final standings after the cut to top 8 were:

1: Duane - Mod Squad Shops
2: Nam - Mis-copied from Detweiler Shops
3: Kevin Cron - Paradoxical outcome
4: Frank - Dredge
5: Hazard - Paradoxical Outcome
6: Steve S - White Eldrazi
7: Ben Perry - Two Card Monte
8: Kevin Nelson - Dredge
9: Sam Krohlow - Bomberman
10: Kurt Crane- Bomberman Oath
11: Jimmy McCarthy- Bomberman
12: Erik Butler - Vintage Miracles
13: Kyle Lenox - Dredge
14: Nat - Tidespout Tyrant Oath
15: Rick Gideon - Gideon-style Shops
16: Justin Waller - Prison Shops
17: Mark Trogdon - Shops
18: CJ - Painter + Red Cards?
19: Charles Rolko - Paradoxical Outcome
20: Twaun - Tezzerator
21: Randal - UR Delver w/Price of Progress
22: Alex - White Eldrazi
23: Jake Hilty - Grixis Painter
24: Steve McGrew - UW Mentor

Top 8 PLayed out like this:
Duane Beat Kevin
Ben Perry beat Nam
Kevin Cron beat Steve
Frank beat Hazard

Kevin Beat Ben Perry
Frank Beat Duane

Frank won the whole thing vs Kevin

Top 8 Deck Lists (in no particular order):
Frank Singel - Dredge
Lands 18
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass
3 Petrified Field
2 Dakmor Salvage
1 Riftstone Portal

Creature 24
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Prized Amalgam
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Ashen Rider

Spells 18
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
4 Serum Powder
2 Dread Return

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Nature's Claim
3 Barbarian Ring

Kevin Cron - Paradoxical Tezz
Tezzeret, the Seeker 1
Time Vault 1
Voltaic Key 1
Defense Grid 1
Memory Jar 1
Sensei's Diving Top 2
Mind's Desire 1
Paradoxical Outcome 4
Tinker 1
Gitaxian Probe 4
Preodrain 3
Demonic Tutor 1
Ponder 1
Time Walk 1
Vampiric Tutor 1
Ancestral Recall 1
Brainstorm 1
Yawgmoth's Will 1
Timetwister 1
Hurkyl's Recall 2
Chain of Vapor 1
Tendrils of Agony 1
Force of Will 4
Lion's Eye Diamond 1
Mana Vault 1
Black Lotus 1
Lotus Petal 1
Sol Ring 1
Mox Pearl 1
Mox Ruby 1
Mox Sapphire 1
Mox Jet 1
Mox Emerald 1
Mox Opal 4
Mana Crypt 1
Misty Rainforest 4
Tropical Island 1
Tolarian Academy 1
Underground Sea 2
Island 1

SB: 15
Island 2
Forest 2
Library of Alexandria 1
Nature's Claim 3
Defense Grid 2
Hurkyl's Recall 2
Mindbreak Trap 2
Blightsteel Colossus 1

Duane Haddix - Mod Squad
3 Arcbound Ravager
3 Hangarback Walker
1 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
3 Animation Module
1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphère
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Wasteland

3 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Dismember
3 Foundry Inspector
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Null Rod
1 Spatial Contortion

Nam Tran -Nick Detwiler Shops
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Lodestone Golem
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Steel Overseer
4 Walking Ballista
3 Foundry Inspector (Was supposed to be Chief of the Foundry. Oops!)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Duplicant
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Gaea's Blessing

Ben Perry - 2 card monte
Main Deck

Steve S - White Eldrazi
5 Plains
4 Cavern of souls
4 wasteland
1 Strip mine
2 Eldrazi Temple
2 Karakas
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Null Rod
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Containment Priest
2 Thought Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

3 Mental Misstep
2 Kataki, Wars Wage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Seal of Cleansing

Hazard - Paradoxical Outcome
Hot Fire

**Kevin Nelson - Dredge **
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Riftstone Portal
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Force of Will
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Mental Misstep
4 Narcomoeba
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Serum Powder
4 Stinkweed Imp


1 Balance
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Ingot Chewer
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Nature's Claim
2 Serenity

Some pics from the event
The entry fee was something for the prize pool, and the donations were phenomenal, I have 2 different pictures with the prizes set up on different tables (yes that sawzall was part of the prizes).

Prize Pool 1
Yes inside that box is a bottle of honey mustard and a scrubland.

Prize Poll 2
Table 1:
Table 1
Table 2 (some of that is not Vintage):
Table 2
Table 3:
Table 3
Table 4 (including our new friend Alex playing magic for the first time in 20 years!):
Table 4
Feature Match Table upstairs (that is the finals!)
Feature Match Area

Nam and Ben Perry top 8 competitors:
Nam & Ben
Casual Drink using Vintage deck as coaster:
Vintage Coaster
Classic Jimmy McCarthy vs Twaun Q Pwnerton matchup:
Twaun & Sprinkles
Jake & Steve invent a new game Better Poker hand or 2 cards from cube:
Bottom 2 place != least amount of fun
Team Serious Elite Twaun, Nam, and Justin:
All the leftover Beer:

posted in Off-Topic read more

@thewhitedragon69 Man, we just wanted something fun to do. Also, sorry we might have accidentally made your collection worth more, I guess?

Sometimes I really hate the internet.

posted in TheManaDrain Metadiscussion read more

I don't know if this is possible, but it would be nice if there was some way to link to all the people currently streaming vintage? Maybe somewhere in the Vintage around the web section?

I don't know what kind of implementation challenges there are for this, since I don't know a lot about twitch and if it has any publicly facing APIs but it would be a really nice feature.

posted in Vintage Community read more

This format as it is now seems great. I feel like you can win with anything? I have never been a shops pilot, and I never feel like I am the underdog in those matchups except when I got Vintage'd, which happens from literally every deck in the format.

I would prefer no restrictions, if you feel like something has to be restricted from shops, it needs to be accompanied by an unrestriction of chalice, as that card is useful to many other archetypes, and doesn't have a lot to do with what current shops decks are doing. I think chalice is a totally reasonable card, and totally don't understand why it was restrcted in the first place. As for unrestrictions, Bargain and Ponder are tied for cards I think are the safest probably. It is possible that Bargain makes some sort of show & tell deck too good with 8 targets, but at the moment Oath seems like a 2 mana version of Bargain a lot of the time.

posted in Vintage Community read more

I think it is funny that most of the decks playing karn and forge weren't playing sphere. Also, the second to last paragraph, they were talking about bring back necro 4x! I am excited.

Who wants to help me brew fastbond high tide?

posted in Vintage Community read more

Or just post the recipe period? I feel like fully half of vintage is the food you eat after/during and before tournaments.

posted in Art and Collecting read more

This forum has been pretty quiet, but I thought you all might appreciate this. I wanted to share a couple pieces of art I JUST received in the mail from Drew Tucker. It isn't from magic, it is from the Werewolf roleplaying games books that were World of Darkness publishing and now are published by Onyx. I have wanted to own something by Drew Tucker for a long time, and started emailing with him about getting some custom proxies made, when he mentioned he still had some non-magic art available!

There are 2 pieces and a sketch he included, along with the two watercolors. I am so excited to get these framed, but I wanted to share them ASAP, sorry for the quality on the pictures, I don't have a very fancy smart phone.

All 3
Image 1
Image 2

posted in Vintage Community read more

I am going to say something on a bit of tangent from the argument that is taking place, but relevant to the main topic, namely: I would prefer no changes from wotc all the time even in a stale meta, because I think they make the wrong choices about what to ban most of the time, and I would rather the status quo than something worse. I think there are changes that would improve the meta (I think we all believe some change would improve it slightly), but overall I would rather wotc just leave things the way they are rather than make them worse.

posted in Vintage Community read more

I think flash is actually faster and harder to disrupt than Storm, for a couple reasons. First, it is way easier to run blue protection in the form of force, pact, and flusterstorm. You also don't get nearly as hard by MM. You also don't need a critical mass of cards in hand to win (which I know isn't as true of storm in vintage as other formats) but is still a thing. Yes it is more bomb focused but generally you need mana and bombs. Flash just needs the particular bomb and 2 mana.

The fact that countering rituals/lotus is super good against storm but only OK vs flash is basically the thing I am talking about.

posted in Decks read more

I have seen some questions about where Oath is in the meta at the moment, and as a person who loves Oath hybrid combo decks, I figured it might be helpful to get my answer to that question in the form of the deck I have now been playing for a couple months.

So to be clear, I didn't come up with this idea, and this list definitely was informed by many lists that came before. I know there has been some success by others with different versions of this deck, some of which are quite similar, and I definitely have some biases about what I like, so this is in no way the "definitive list".

Let's get started, first and foremost this is a combo deck with a capital COMBO, it is optimized around winning ASAP, even after oathing into griselbrand, you will lose games, if you try and play like control oath. We don't have the density of answers needed to win that kind of game. That isn't to say it isn't correct to occasionally win by attacking 3 times (especially against shops decks), but the standard game plan of this deck whether casting paradoxical or activating oath is to win with storm.

Secondly, this is one of my favorite oath decks to draw Griselbrand with, because oathing to just completely fill your yard and then memory's journeying back both Twister and Will is great! Memory's journey is a super important card, and means that we can get away with the super minimal Oath package that we have. Adding additional Oath targets to the main is not advised.

Finally our Protection suite is probably the biggest point of that could be easily varied. I have a somewhat scattered approach here that I tweak out of the board adding more duresses/counters/grids depending on the MU. Your meta might dictate a different mix between main and board, but either way, having access to some of each of these effects is quite good.

We are running minimal cantrips in this list, mostly because this is a deck where we are trying to have more bombs than our opponents have counters. This works a surprising amount of the time against mentor decks, especially post board when we get to add in remoras. There probably is a more controlling version of this deck with more cantrips and less bombs, but that doesn't mesh well with what I think the goals of the deck are to be fast and brutal against the blue decks/combo decks. To race dredge and to have a resilient game 1 back up plan against shops.

The worst matchup for this deck is probably White Eldrazi, but it isn't unbeatable it just requires a bit more hard work. Our shops matchup is much better than W Eldrazi, simply because hurkyl's does so very much work. The addition of Containment priest/stony silence/tks makes the MU much worse.

All the other big players are pretty reasonable matchups, I would estimate in the 50/50 area, depending on specific builds, with the added bonus, that people tend to make mistakes because they don't know which plan you are working toward, and different cards are good against each one. As a sidenote, Enchantments are a really good card type in Vintage right now, very little that interacts with other good cards, interacts with them positively and especially low cost ones that disencentivize your opponent trying to kill you with creatures seem ideal. Basically fragmentize is our main concern these days from that perspective and it is hard to want to side in in large numbers when your opponent might just storm you out.

Last matchup comment, as you can tell this deck is basically ignoring and racing dredge, you are more than welcome to add in some cards specifically for that matchup, but my meta is largely dredge-less so I don't bother. My recommendation would be rav traps and leylines if you wanted something though. It is nice to have something you can draw if you get early oath into griseldad.

I don't want to get into too many specifics about mulliganing decisions other than not to side out the oath package or storm kill, leaving both in gives too many free wins against people that decide to hedge against a particular plan. Also, never cut memory's journey, it is too important an Oh Shit card to cut.

posted in Official Tournament Results read more

@smmenen said in North American Eternal Weekend 2017 Metagame Breakdown:

@arcranedenial said in North American Eternal Weekend 2017 Metagame Breakdown:

Are we really surprised that the inbred blue decks with maindeck 4x misstep, multiple pyroblast and a smattering of other dead cards with no sideboard recourse are losing to shops? I mean let’s call a spade a spade.

If this point had any validity, then neither chalice, lodestone golem nor thorn would've been restricted. The exact same argument was raised & rejected in each case.

My impression is that there are still a lot of non-shops decks that start off with 4 mm 2 pyroblast with more in the board and that seems fine, but very few look like the deck below, which I think doesn't make any sense if shops is the best deck in vintage right now. I think you can't reject the validity of Kurt Crane's argument, because we have never been able to examine if it is true.

If you think his argument isn't valid, please point me to the data that suggests that shops has overcome a dedicated deckbuilding shift like the one Kurt describes. (Interestingly, I don't think you have to cut MM and Pyroblast to be able to include all the good anti-shops cards, again see below).

People continue to not respect shops to the same extent that they respect Blue decks and dredge, despite shops being the single most represented archetype at EW. I understand that, in aggregate blue decks are a larger slice of the pie, however, we don't generally talk about all of them as one archetype, or think about sideboarding for them in aggregate so I think the point still stands.


posted in Vintage Community read more

@cutlex said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:

@bobbyvictory said in October 17, 2017 Banned & Restricted announcement:

@garbageaggro You are correct, however, why does shops need an extra 4 ways that is also a threat to do this? Mishra's Workshop is currently on the chopping block and will probably get axed. I think we are better off axing inspector/misstep. Are you suggesting it's better to just restrict Mishra's Workshop?

I don't think he's suggesting that we restrict anything. There are a lot of people who are ready to wait and see instead of knee-jerking a restriction.

I don't think we need to restrict anything. I do think blue decks are built incorrectly to fight shops at the moment. I was just trying to show you that the things you wrote aren't a good argument for why we should restrict inspector instead of shops.

So, i think a lot of people that have been talking about built correclty have been talking about a mix of point removal and things like energy flux, since shops is at its worst at preventing you from casting those slightly more expensive, but better answers with 3 fewer lock pieces, that have been replaced for the most part with more threats.

posted in Vintage Strategy read more

@hrishi said in EW Meta and discussion.:

g at WOTC and going "FIX THIS!!!" and that probably drives more people away from wanting to participate than any lopsided metagame ever will.
With how quickly people call for restrictions and changes, the format changes way too quickly for any kind of natural change to take place. Granted, there is zero incentive for natural change because people are simply waiting for the next B&R announcement and netdecking to their heart's content until that point. I don't mean to say anything negative towards people netdecking, but when you copy existing decks, you're going to perpetuate their weaknesses and continue the same metagame going forward, MODO simply increases this effect.

Oh man, I thought I was the only person, that saw the results of EW and got excited about having a meta to build decks against! This is always my favorite part of the year, because it lets me really think about the larger universe of vintage and what is going on. I have been intrigued by people still trying to beat shops with snapcaster + spot removal despite the smaller number of draw spells post gush, and the transition of shops to being more aggressive, playing fewer spheres, and having cards that are better against spot removal.

This made me feel like it was more possible to play some of the bigger and more impactful anti shops cards (and in higher numbers) and still have a positive matchup against blue decks. I want to see more Melt down, energy flux, hurkyl's, by forces, etc paired with some spot removal to set up really devastating positions.

posted in Vintage Community read more

@protoaddict said in Should all Vintage be 100% proxy?:

The whole format is elitist, it is the nature of the beast and one of its features, not a bug. Most eternal formats in most games are. If you want accessibility limited is a lot more open.

Why is it a feature?

posted in Single-Card Discussion read more

The "problem" with abusing this with voltaic key, is if you have voltaic key and mana don't you just get time vault? You don't need to tutor twice.

posted in Decks read more

So as some of you may know a couple of years ago I missed the top 8 at champs on breakers with a Gush Tendrils list running Oath out of the sideboard to have some sort of gameplan in games 2 and 3 against shops. This deck list was basically my favorite deck of all time, but even with the tricksy sideboard, good shops players would take their surprise loss game 2 side in the cards they would against oath and still crush me, as I didn't really have a good plan for them.

Fast forward about a year, and I after getting frustrated with the current decks available start talking with some friends about my favorite list. I mention that I sided in Oath in all my g2s at champs, and we realized that it might be reasonable to just start with Oath in the main anyhow. Thus the first version of Gush OAth Tendrils (GOAT) was born. I played this for awhile in the Team Serious Ohio meta, but I still felt like some of the cards weren't quite right. One of the biggest reasons was that Gush + fastbond didn't feel as strong as it once had. With more cards that didn't allow you to continue the chain, the GushBond plan just didn't come up that often.

Since that was already bad against shops I decided to focus on some other more bomb-like cards, specifically in the form of some more tutors and Gifts Ungiven (which thankfully allows me to keep calling the deck GOAT).

For the past month I have been testing this version, and found it to be very good. Still a little inconsistent, but overall very powerful and able to interact with many of the decks in the format. Thank goodness everyone started running creatures.

Deck: The GOAT! v 2.0 {U}{B}{G}



Display deck statistics

So really quickly, I wanted to just talk about the basics of what this deck is trying to do, if it isn't obvious. The idea is that you can function as either a storm combo deck or an oath deck and that those strategies are not necessarily mutually exclusive, since Oath is basically Bargain in this deck. One thing that has been nice, is that cards like containment priest are a lot less irritating than they might be normally for an oath deck, since setting up memory's journey post 2nd oath and just comboing out is also a very quick way to win.

The oath plan can either be to make storm happen or to just beatdown depending on the situation. While we aren't playing force, you should be able to wreck face with duress effects post oath, and they do allow for a reasonable turn 1 play to help determine which way to focus.

Gifts Ungiven in this deck can be very flexible in this list, and the ability to get Oath + Tim Walk is reminiscent of Tinker Time Walk in older versions of the deck. One of my favorite piles thus far involves a regrowth effect in hand and gifts for Ritual Ritual Dark Petition DT. This should allow for an easy storm kill for the low price of maximally 4 mana (assuming the card in hand is regrowth).

Postboard the deck can get more controlling or more combo focused depending on the matchup.