posted in Combo read more

@griselbrother said in How to beat Paradoxical Outcome:

Eidolon of Rhetoric

The less card types something has, the more likely it's ability to stay in play, so I'd recommend Rule of Law or Arcane Laboratory over Eidolon of Rhetoric, although if you think the benefit of it being a creature outweighs is detriment, then obviously Eidolon would be a better choice.

Stony Silence is probably the best objective card versus their overall strategy.

posted in Single-Card Discussion read more

@aelien said in [BBD] Sentinel Tower:

Etherswon Canonist since with its 2 life pared with the ability is immune against this kind of removal (Pack your sideboard with that bad girl if you are scared of Sentinal Tower

If you have 2 towers in play, any instant or sorcery will kill Canonist, right?

Also, if you play an instant or sorcery, and your opponent counters it...that kills Canonist too, right?

IDK how strong of a sideboard option Canonist really is against this.

posted in Single-Card Discussion read more

Just some clarifications, for someone who is better at rules?

If I cast Bonus Round, then another Bonus Round, then Lightning Bolt, I get 4x Lightning Bolt?

First Bonus Round would make it so I get 2 bolts,
Two more bonus rounds (from the 2nd bonus round) means I get 4 total?

so then....because I now have 4 bonus rounds up,

casting another bonus round puts 4 copies on the stack, so when they all resolve, I get 8 copies?

So we're essentially just doubling the amount of copies I get every time I cast it, and an additional copy if it ever gets forked?

posted in Vintage News read more


Is it cool if I, or someone with even greater powers than I, make a new thread about this and copy/paste all the stuff above there? I feel like this is off-topic, but really good discussion.

posted in Vintage News read more


Hi! Thank you for long, well thought out reply.

I think now, however, is a good time to address something that I am seeing on this thread...

Is there something, anything at all, that I wrote that would indicate a comparision of Black Lotus to Mishra's Workshop?

I have had multiple posters respond to ME with regard to this argument.

I have, in fact, stated at least three times now that I never drew or intended to draw a comparison between the two cards, and in fact wrote multiple sentences and paragraphs explaining this point.

I was not directly comparing Lotus and Workshop, re-read my comment.
Again, I wasn't even directly comparing the two.

My initial comment, which was misread and sparked the discussion:

Mishra's Workshop is more like Lotus/Moxen than Bazaar/Misstep/Survival.

I went on to explain this sentence shortly after:

Dredge is an entirely different beast all together, in the sense that the deck so heavily relies on mulliganing to Bazaar. Shop decks, on the other hand, do not necessitate the card at all, just a combination of spells and mana sources, with which Workshop is just one of many tools the deck has access to. This is why I think Workshop is more similar to Lotus/Moxen than Bazaar/Survival/Misstep.

The primary reason I am writing this is because people are not interchangeable. I have made a completely different point than the Workshop vs. Lotus discussion this has turned into, so while your post is well reasoned, I am probably the last person you should be addressing.

I normally would think that it is my fault that this misunderstanding has occured, since if multiple people are all responding the same way, it is probably a problem with the initial statement. However, I have written many, many statements now that have seemingly gone ignored and I am not sure why my initial post is being responded to, yet none of my very many clarifications.

posted in TheManaDrain Metadiscussion read more


FWIW, I tried to report probably the same post(s), and couldn't either. I am also on Desktop.

EDIT: Just for further clarification: I do not see the option to report anywhere, it's an issue of being hidden or hard to find. It's not that I can find it and the button doesn't work.

posted in Vintage News read more


Apology accepted, thank you for admitting wrong. I think it is one of the most difficult and respectable things you can do in life.

posted in Vintage News read more


@FORCEOFNATURE This kind of generalization is the opposite of why a site like TMD matters. We're here to actually think through this kind of stuff.
Workshop is not Lotus because it takes a land drop; because it works in basically the only deck that can support it; AND because the kind of stuff it casts is WAY, WAY less agressively costed than the stuff Black Lotus casts. It you told me Workshop could cast 3 spells that had the power of Ancestral Recall, Time Walk or whatever per turn, THEN we could be talking about this. Not even Mana Vault and Dark Ritual are comparable, why would Workshop and Lotus. This may seem irrelevant to you, but it's a kind of thinking that leads to wrong B&R policy. Saying it's like Lotus, specially in a B&R context discussion, is counter-productive to understanding its actual place in the format.

I'm sorry, did you read anything I wrote?

I'm specifically talking about these quotes:

I was not directly comparing Lotus and Workshop, re-read my comment.
Again, I wasn't even directly comparing the two.


And @FORCEOFNATURE you should think fucking harder before calling other people stupid without even knowing them, thank you very much.

Can you please tell me where I called you, or anyone else, stupid? A quote would be nice. This is now the second time you have attempted to scold me for something I did not write.

This conversation has me pegging you at best confused about who is posting what, but to consistently write verbage like...

you should think fucking harder

If at best, you are trying to reply to @KingLeovold when he wrote "to say Black Lotus and Workshops couldn’t be more different is a laughably stupid comment", don't you think it's quite telling of some ironic projection? i.e. how can you tell someone to think harder when you can't post better? I would say replying to the correct person is a more basic task than understanding complex differences in the most played trading card game worldwide.

You're lecturing him about how he should never talk in a certain way, but no one can lecture you on how you talk, because when we take issue with:

they couldn't be more different.

your reply is "let's state the obvious: I clearly get why people compare the two cards, I'm not dense."

So apparently it's obvious that you meant something completely different than what you wrote. However, when @KingLeovold said that your argument was stupid... he meant you were stupid. Gotcha. I don't think calling your argument stupid and you stupid is the same thing. I've made stupid arguments before, but I'm not a stupid person. It's certainly not written as combative as you've made it.

I actually wrote earlier never mistake for malice what could be a misunderstanding, and I think you have both under the belt in spades here. Judge others by actions (real or imagined, in this case), and ourselves by intent much?

I think I am done replying to you. I have treated you with nothing but respect, and you have not afforded me the same luxury. You have literally completely ignored what I have written, put words in my mouth, and been downright vulgar and insulting.

I just wrote a post about how impressed I was with the community here on TMD, but if this is the average level of posting I should come to expect, I don't see a reason to continue using this forum.

EDIT: Added a paragraph about @KingLeovold

posted in Vintage News read more


  1. I was not directly comparing Lotus and Workshop, re-read my comment.

  2. I disagree with everything you wrote.

We should really, like REALLY stop comparing Workshop and Lotus.

Why? The entire point of a forum like this is to draw comparisons, differences, play scenarios, deck choices, etc. It's literally why people come here.

Again, I wasn't even directly comparing the two.

It's a very bad categorization of the card since they couldn't be more different.

They could not be more different? Really? You could not think of a less different card than Mishra's Workshop to compare Black Lotus to, or vice versa? Is this meant as hyperbole or sarcasm?

An old saying is never mistake for malice what could be a misunderstanding, so perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment here, but it seems like you're trying to scold me for something I did not write, meanwhile hopefully writing something that you did not actually mean (they could not be more different).



Sorry I forgot to reply to your post.

I kinda put Shops and Bazaar in the same tier. Both are lands so there is a parallel right there, but in their respective decks they both do the same thing, which is to let you play things faster than the mana cost of said cards would have normally intended. With Shops its a much more direct path to do so, but Bazaar in a dredge list is the thing that lets you play cards most of the time because of its interaction with dredge, narco, and bloodghast and co.

I had not considered this immediately! I think you could definitely draw a comparison between Bazaar and Workshop in that they are enablers of playing your strategy, both lands, etc. I do think Bazaars are an entirely different classification than conventional mana sources, however, because Bazaar is a graveyard abuse strategy, while casting spells via tapping and paying mana is quite different. This is largely the axis I was thinking about Workshops on.

To put it in a different way; Dredge is an entirely different beast all together, in the sense that the deck so heavily relies on mulliganing to Bazaar. Shop decks, on the other hand, do not necessitate the card at all, just a combination of spells and mana sources, with which Workshop is just one of many tools the deck has access to. This is why I think Shops are more similar to Lotus / Moxen then Survival, Misstep, and Bazaar.

posted in Vintage News read more


Been loving this discussion, honestly. This thread is awesome.

Mishra's Workshop is more like Black Lotus / Moxen than Bazaar/Misstep/Survival.

That is my only argument in this classification system.

posted in TheManaDrain Metadiscussion read more

Maybe it hasn't been 10 years, but it's been a long time.

I've been lurking (and posting, I can't actually lurk) for a week or two now. I like everything about TMD and Vintage more now, especially the community. This place was the premier public forum to read about all things Vintage back when I played, and it seems it's only grown more mature, along with it's members, in professionalism, insight, and sportsmanship.

Good job, y'all. Keep it up.

posted in Vintage News read more


Even though I played shops like 10 years ago, this entire comment is true. Shops doesn't need a workshop. Two mana lands are not "just as good" but sometimes they can actually be better, like if you're trying to cast a non-artifact.

Artifacts, particularly artifact creatures, have experienced a ridiculous power creep over the time I have not been playing.

Mishra's Workshop is easily the most powerful card still not on the restricted list, with Mental Misstep a distant second.

posted in Vintage News read more

@stormanimagus said in SMIP Podcast # 78: Dominaria Vintage Set Review:

Agreed. I believe if they had a land that tapped for 2 mana only used to cast artifact spells or pay for abilities of artifacts that would probably be fine.

This is the solution I see Wizards eventually taking.

Step 1: Restrict Workshop.
Step 2: Print this card:

Mishra's Workstation
Tap: Add 2(Colorless). Spend this mana only to cast artifact spells.

posted in Official Tournament Results read more


Just one player.

Seems like shops are clearly the dominant deck; most represented and highest win percentage other than a single outlier.

Pretty clear on nearly every metric.

posted in Single-Card Discussion read more


Lots of old school Stax lists played rainbow lands or basic mountains over Ancient Tombs. This was before Mox Opal as well.

posted in Single-Card Discussion read more


I have no idea! I'm just thinking about getting back into Vintage after like a ... 7 year hiatus?

Just brainstorming, I thought of Dragon, but I don't know if that's the best shell for it. I think this thing has to be paired with rituals for sure, so that probably narrows down the options a good bit. Reanimator might be okay, I don't know. Not suuuuuper familiar with everything.


Hey bud. I'm good. My friend was talking to me about getting back into Magic. Vintage seems cool right now, although I think they could restrict a card or two. Different discussion.

Anyway, yeah, it gets two cards, so I'm thinking there's something there that we haven't seen before, and potentially something that will make it insane in the future, but I don't know if it exists right now. I think there might be something better out there for it than just stuffing it into Dragon/Reanimator, because it is so exact.

Final Parting
Demonic Tutor + Entomb

Dark Petition
Demonic Tutor + Dark Ritual

posted in Single-Card Discussion read more


This is a way better comparison, and I lol'd. Yeah, this card is really bad compared to Gifts.

EDIT: I think that Gifts piles are probably more diverse, reliable, and they can really punish bad opponent judgement or favorable hidden states. I think there may be some value in this card in the long-term... if a very specific combo interaction required a piece in hand and a piece in graveyard. Would it be more favorable to play this in... Dragon ? Where you want to put a Worldgorger Dragon in the yard and an Animate Dead (or Pact of Negation / Force of Will)?

I also suppose it could theoretically produce mana if you have Yawgmoth's Will in hand slightly more reliably than Dark Petition, since it gets Lotus, LED, or Rituals... but Gifts does that too... WAY better.