@MaximumCDawg

4. New Printings. This is the solution to stagnant formats that no one seems to talk about much when the subject comes up. Just like yesterday's mistakes are tomorrow's Vintage decks, today's bugbears are tomorrow's unplayable garbage. We have already seen Wizards take a step in the direction of making very versatile and powerful answers to Mentor in the form of Leovold. What if we get Dread of Night stapled to a hate bear that does something else relevant? What if we had some card that finally, FINALLY ended the reign of Horizontal Growth once and for all -- say, something that made the opponent's spells cost more for each token they controlled, or something like that?

While I totally agree with preferring new printings to restriction, I think it'd be pretty tough for Wizards to "target" new printings at solving the problems of any format, other than Standard. I think it happens on accident when a new card does warp or add something to a non-rotating format because WotC either doesn't think a certain mechanic will end up making the cut in eternal, or they just don't consider the entirety of Magic when they innovate cards (to many a brewer's delight). I personally think it would suck to have a card like what you describe printed, Wizards would be addressing the problem with a "play it or beat it" mindset, which would make me super uncomfortable as a Vintage player, not to mention it's far less expensive from their perspective to restrict a card than to print a new card.

Good new printings usually emerge as cards that end up propping up various other archetypes that as a side effect, hurt the big bad deck. Not saying that Shops is hurting right now (quite the opposite), but if Mentor is the target of our discussion then cards like Fleetwheel Cruiser or Walking Ballista are "good new printings" because they help boost the competition. (I personally like it best when WotC makes a mistake and prints a 2-card combo with some obscure Tempest card I haven't seen in a deck since 1997, but that's rare ) Thinking in those terms it would be very difficult to see an "accidental" new printing resolving the Mentor issue, the "other" deck has 3-5 new cards in the past year to combat Mentor and boost its own strategies, but Mentor remains a problem.

Since this discussion has gone into minutiae, this isn't really necessary, but I felt like I should bleep in.

I've been saying this for a bit... Gush wasn't completely busted until we started using a 3CMC "gro-wide" creature as a 4 of. Gush in any other creature-based shell was reasonable, and I can't believe I'm saying this because Pyromancer Gush was/is very annoying and boring to play against, but I'd rather deal with U/B/R Delver with a healthy dose of Elemental tokens flashing back Cabal Therapies than deal with any deck that uses Mentor. Mentor is oppressive, uninteresting, and unfun; taking out tokens is key to surviving the fight of both Pyro and Mentor, but Monk tokens are far more resilient and oppressive than Elemental tokens, and they are generated and pumped by enchantments and artifacts... A much different beast altogether.

Point being that if you don't like Gush decks mentally ruling the metagame, restricting the card that profits off of it the most is probably a good way to go.

Some questions I think need to be asked, and I rhetorically answer them because, why not.

If Gush were the real issue, wouldn't (at least) one other Gush-based deck be a runner-up in the meta, and be an obvious successor to Mentor, should Monastery Mentor be restricted?
Considering the other two Gush decks are at 3% and 4% of the meta (Pyro Delver and Nahiri respectively), they both don't add up to half of the numbers Gush Mentor has in the meta (23% of decks as of 4/10/17), even adding the 1% from Gush/Bond. I assume the percentage of Pyro Delver would go up should Monastery Mentor be restricted, but whether or not it is good enough against new Shops variants, Eldrazi, newer Oath variants, etc, is to be seen. I personally don't think Pyromancer is nearly as good, in any way, as Monastery Mentor, and I don't think any variant of Pyromancer would emerge as the "#1 deck" should MM be restricted. And, to be quite frank, if Gush WAS the problem, wouldn't Gush/Bond really be the way to maximize and break the format, considering everyone's talking about "free spells and mana ramp" as reasons to axe Gush? Curious that Gush/bond is sitting at 1.4% of the format... Other factors certainly bear on that number, still is a bit illustrative that many of us are looking in the wrong place.

Are we certain that restricting Gush would have any effect on the metagame other than nearly wiping out that 7-8% of non-mentor Gush decks? Are we sure that Mentor wouldn't still be in top 8s by making the least effort possible to update to a world with 1 Gush?
I don't think so. Restricting Gush "hurts" Mentor like a bee-sting.
It's funny when folks mention the banning of Splinter Twin in Modern as an example of how to hit Gush... (I swear it's somewhere in the morass above)
Mentor IS Splinter Twin and Gush is Pestermite in this analogy. Splinter Twin has an analogous card that is strictly worse in Kiki Jiki (in the case of Mentor is Young Pyromancer), Twin abuses the functionally identical Pestermite and Exarch (in the case of Gush is literally any other draw spell or free artifact spell) to go broken. Imagine the DCI banning Exarch or Pestermite in order to solve the problem of Twin decks. This is essentially what would happen if the DCI restricted Gush to hit Mentor decks. I acknowledge that this is an imperfect analogy since Gush is better than Preordain to a much bigger degree than Pestermite is better than Exarch, but that is beside the point; the big baddy is Mentor.

Will restricting Gush be enough?
It would take quite a lot of restrictions in order to curb Mentor effectively, we're talking Probe, Gush, Misstep, Preordain, and maybe the next-worst cantrip as well. Eliminating 4-ofs of a single card in a Mentor list would be ineffectual at curbing Mentor unless it's Mentor. "Mentor-the-card" is the problem, its effect has been to amplify nearly every card being called for restriction in this thread and elsewhere.

I would think the goal of any restriction is to not restrict more cards, correct? Be as effective as possible in dealing with imbalances without 8-card restrictions and format micro-management? Seeing as Mentor will get along just fine without Gush and will likely need a second restriction to affect its position, not to mention the side-effect of killing gush/bond decks which are enjoyable to watch (from my perspective) and fun to play against, restricting Monastery Mentor is the most effective way to get the desired effect.

I don't want to seem combative, but it's been irritating seeing people value having the card Mentor in the format more than the card Gush. Gush has been around for such a long time, it has a history in the format for good or ill, and it's powerful but by god are we a far cry from calling Gush/Bond more "broken" than Mentor. Gush is difficult to play and is interesting, Mentor is extremely easy to play and is uninteresting.

Gush needs to be correctly analyzed regarding its power level once Mentor (which profits off far more cards than just Gush) is off the table.

As a hatebears player, I can honestly say that Wizards made a huge design flub and continues to make it by printing good, low-cost, hateful creatures in white. Someone earlier said "the deck builds itself", and to be honest, it kind of does. There is very little incentive to splash any other color which makes the decision of what to do with your manabase much easier. Yeah, you could splash green for Teeg, but you could also just cast something else in white that essentially has the same effect on the game.

I have always loved playing prison decks, and would happily play one where each of these 2/2s was replaced by an Enchantment. Because 2/2s die. A lot.

Nobody can really be that put off by hatebears, more than half of the good bears are Enchantments or Artifacts and get hosed by Disenchant or any other non-creature removal (Aegis of the Gods, Revoker, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Ethersworn Canonist), along with any other enchantments or artifacts. They're creatures, which means every Plow you could possibly draw has a target. They're usually only 2-1 toughness so a bolt or any direct damage spell/effect can change the game. There's an enchantment in Magic that costs B that kills Thalia v1, Aegis of the Gods, Dryad Militant, Judge's Familiar, Kataki, Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, and Vryn Wingmare, there's a creature in red that does the same. If you manage to kill a bear (not hard to do) you're essentially getting rid of a "rule" that has been imposed on the game, and can use that opportunity to go off, kill stuff, draw cards, whatever, it happens in about 1/2 of the games I lose to Gush decks. Jace (who is in a billion Vintage decks) lets you pick and choose which effect you can 'turn off' during your turn by bouncing any creature you so desire, giving you a huge tempo advantage (making us play the card again) and giving you another opportunity to counter a hateful bear. If you get rid of a bear you're not only getting rid of a 2/2 body, you're getting rid of, most likely, the only thing keeping the hatebear player alive, which is a pretty big deal.

Honestly, I can't see people being that miffed about hatebears. We're not putting up very good results as far as I can tell. We have to get creatures through the stack which rarely happens unless Cavern happens to be set to the right creature type (not talking Humans builds which I wouldn't consider to be Hatebears) i.e. FoW, Mana Drain, Misstep and so on can keep the battlefield completely clear; we have to keep those creatures in play which is difficult considering nearly every/any kind of removal can destroy our strategy; and there are multiple cards that can be DT'd for that literally wipe out half the deck.

(One of the problems I have seen is that Vintage players generally are using their life total as a resource, which I think is absolutely a good plan, definitely, but if on turn 2 or 3 you've managed to crack two fetches, have taken 3 damage from a Mana Crypt, have FoW'd a bear, and cast Snuff Out, and the rest of the time you drew cards, you're down 10 points. A single, unobstructed 2/2 then becomes a problem... I'm actually really intrigued that the best answer to a deck that wants your life total to be zero is a card that costs 4 life to cast.)

I guess the point is that Hatebears is hardly the Prisoniest deck out there, we don't have a land that taps for three to cast a Tangle Wire on turns 1-4 while pricing you out of one drops with Thorn and Spheres and attacking for 6-10. Hatebears is not the Creaturiest creature deck, we don't have a self-replicating, pumping 2/2 for 3 mana or the "plain version" for 2 mana. Hatebears' most broken play is a Turn 1 Thalia (pick a version) which can be countered, killed, or hated out with Dread of Night, a 1 drop 1-of card in a sideboard of a deck full of tutors and draw spells. We don't even run counterspells. Yall literally have to do nothing with your blue decks and you're at the very least 50/50 against Bears. Push it over the edge by including one of several options which you most likely already have included in the sideboard for Mentor.

I've met a lot of you online and played yas on MTGO. You all have massive game and probably killed me handily unless you run Storm, Dredge, Belcher, or Tezz. I don't have the best hatebears deck, but honestly I don't think much would change if the list was optimal. I think this is a giant to-do over nothing. Wizards is overusing using low-cost, low p/t, white, rule changing creatures as a design space, I will certainly agree with that, but I ultimately agree with the OP, I would so much rather have decent printings resolve format imbalances than restrictions. Fun? In a format that still contains Mishra's Workshop and Tangle Wire, talking about relative "fun" as it comes to playing against Hatebears seems a little ridiculous from my perspective. I am having fun playing vintage, which, without hatebears, I probably wouldn't have dove in.

Sweet. Good work on these!

VSL Season 5 is so far, the best! It's only the play-in, but the decks were so sick last round... I'm actually a little bit sad, what happens to the loser when @Brass-Man and @Smmenen duel next week? Can't we have a VSL with both of you? please?

@vaughnbros said in SMIP Podcast #63: "Where Do We Go From Here?":

@Dumpsterac1d I assume you are referring to me and Steve? Except that I've already stated multiple times that either a Mentor, or a Gush restriction would be fine with me.

Honestly, as a Dredge player I would much prefer Mentor to go. People playing W is a much more difficult thing for me to beat, and having my opponent durdle around with Gush is much easier to win against than a Mentor killing me on turn 2. But that wouldn't be objective. Objectively, either is a fine restriction.

Steve's argument has been that if a restriction should occur, it should be Mentor and not Gush. I'm arguing that there shouldn't be a distinction. Either card could satisfy reducing the power level of Mentor Gush.

Gush has mostly homogenized draw engines similar to how Mentor has mostly homogenized win cons. Both seem problematic in terms of diversity to me.

Not specifically talking about you both, I'm referring to everyone who says "Gush Decks" are the problem, and that Gush is the problem and needs restriction. i.e. Rich says on stream regularly (and more frequently as of late) that "Gush is the only way to beat Gush", like he's playing Pyromancer to beat Mentor or something ridiculous. The distinction needs to be made between Gush Mentor and every other Gush deck because it's useless to lump them together unless your main goal is to get Gush restricted.

In a perfect world I'm for the Brian Kelly approach (get rid of all of them) but that is based on the type of Magic I want to play. If the target is to hit Gush Mentor, it's a missed opportunity if you just hit Gush, simply because the deck works fine without Gush, it doesn't need Gush, and will probably reformulate it with Moxen and an alternative draw engine and be similarly oppressive, or find a way to abuse another "formerly restricted" draw engine that will also come to be oppressive and people will want re-restricted (jeez, Gush would be re-re-restricted).

Prioritizing the existence of Mentor the card vs Gush the card in vintage is the problem because Mentor amplifies minor problems in Vintage that become major problems and need dealing with.

edit: People will probably argue that Gush does a similar thing, but when in the past 10 years of Gush's unrestriction have people legitimately been calling for 5 cards to be restricted from Gush-based decks at once? The targets of restriction are erratic in ambivalence and target; Probe, Gush, Misstep, Preordain, Mentor, Outcome are all being discussed. The thing linking all of these to this specific moment in time is the card Monastery Mentor.

Eternal Masters is turning out to be pretty decent, all things considered...

The irritating thing that I had brought up last mega-thread that's rearing its ugly head right now is a difference in definitions.

"Gush decks" were the problem, always and forever, the baddy in the room that needed to be taken down, a HUGE chunk of the metagame, according to many people. The error with analyzing the meta that way, as defined by a single card within a set of decks, is the notion that once that card goes away, the "problem" goes away, and that clearly did not happen. Many people saw "the Mentor deck" as the problem, and only now that we don't have this classification of "Gush Decks" to point the finger at, we're resurrecting the older, more accurate designation the problem decks should have had all along, which is Turbo Xerox.

I just find this very irritating, I never understood why "Gush decks" were lumped together, any analysis from that lack of distinction other than "x percentages of decks would like to draw cards at some point during the match so I need to prepare for that" are tending to be inaccurate. Dominance, prevalence, longevity, percent in top8s and top16s, etc. In April, nobody was referring to the Pyromancer decks when they were discussing restriction, nobody was referring to GushBond, they were referring to Gush Mentor. Gush was a part of TX strategy and might have been a defining card within a good portion of those decks, but the problem with the "Gush Mentor" deck was that Mentor was generating win conditions while the deck was doing it's thing. It was enough of a degree better than the next best, -1CMC card that it replaced almost completely. Now it lives on in the most effortless transformation in a 1-of-Gush world.

I don't think Gush was ever the problem, going out on a limb here, I can see why people would be irritated by it (especially if they had the "Gush decks" are all X and they are all problematic viewpoint), but because the DCI hit Gush/Probe and not Mentor/Misstep, we are now discussing bans in Vintage. For those who are saying a 1-of Mentor deck will still make top 8s... Yes, it will. There is no doubt in my mind, even if that deck just replaces the other three with Pyromancer. Mentor restrict will still have a greater effect on the deck's performance than Gush restrict has had, and I would much rather play in a format where the Mentor/Pyro/Tutor deck is making top 8s, instead of now where I've stopped playing Vintage because it's uninteresting.

Rich's comments come 4 months too late. If this was the recommendation given then (which it was by the majority of players) and taken by the DCI, we would have had a healthier format over the past few months and have been able to assess whether or not "pushing other blue decks out of the format" is a reason to restrict Gush, without Mentor dominance. I don't really mourn Gush so much as I just wish the DCI had listened to more people and had made the more correct choice, I'd still be playing Vintage.

Casting Regeneration on this thread because there was some discussion in one of the FB groups a few days ago regarding adding subforums; In addition to the OP's list, I'd really like a separate sub for "Developing" strategies and decks, as well as a "Primers" sub.

Having "Developing" would hopefully encourage constructive discussion about strategies without clogging the Vintage Strategy forum with B- decklists for people who don't care to see it, and having a "Primers" section that is relatively clear of other kinds of content would make it a go-to section for how to play certain decks and a great place to send people who want good analysis and strategies for decks, as well as encourage people to fill the section (and TMD in general) with quality, well-thought-out content.

This also oddly solves thread-bury which I've noticed is a problem with the endless scrolling nature of the forum software, and because we have notifications in the top left, there's a way to stay updated about what's going on in the subforums.

7. 'Current' Metagame Analysis (Last Updated August 1, 2016)

The Sad News. Due to the matchup against Mentor, I don't think this deck, or other Monowhite Hatebears, has a real fighting chance in the current meta. In the past week I have been tweaking the deck to shore this matchup up, but around 1/2 of the matches I played against were Mentor, and of those I won maybe 1/10. According to TCDecks.net, as of 8/1/16, Mentor is the top performing archetype in paper Magic with 8 top 8s in the last 30 days. I checked out the last 30 events that included Mentor, and 27/30 decks made it to the top 8. According to MtgGoldfish.com, as of 8/1, roughly 21% of the MTGO metagame currently runs Monastery Mentor. This is Mentor's moment, and short of a new printing or new bannings in the format, it looks to be there for quite some time.

I have tried several budget configurations to help shore this matchup up but all have been varying degrees of unsuccessful. Mentor's ability to stop our plays, while simultaneously adding significant power/toughness on the board with every Counterspell and Swords to Plowshares is far too powerful for a monowhite deck to handle. Nearly every other matchup is either a toss-up, really good for us, or good enough that, under the right circumstances and making decent plays, we can overcome. An example would be decks that run Pyromancer. Pyromancer comes out a turn earlier but the assault generally gets halted/delayed by dropping one 2/2 on your side, and trying to keep pace with a Pyro deck is much easier. They are also less likely to run maindeck Swords to Plowshares.

Our deck is also tied to Mentor's success/failure. Oddly enough, even though the strategies are very different between the decks, any likely new printings that could help our deck also have the potential to help their deck. Mentor's dominance right now also means that decks run a lot of hate specifically against Mentor, some of which directly affects our game plan, like boarding in Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental, which can outright kill Thalia 1.0, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Dryad Militant/Judge's Familiar, and Vryn Wingmare, and put us off those plays until they're dealt with.

Until something drastic happens to the Vintage metagame (and I think that the meta is currently pretty stable, with Mentor at the top), be prepared to lose some rough/unfun matches, or switch to a new deck. I'll keep working on this deck with the full knowledge that nothing's going to get better or worse until something gets banned or someone figures out how to nuke the strategy well enough that Mentor becomes a bad deck to play.

8. How to Defeat this deck

Fetching basics is a misplay. Don't do it. I have seen many players somehow equate Ghost Quarter with Wasteland and if I managed to GQ one of their lands and they get a Basic, I'm just doing it to keep them off of a color. With all your basics in play, my Path to Exiles become drawback-less Plows and my Ghost Quarters become Strip Mines. Keep them in your deck so you don't fall behind, and you might actually get ahead curve.

Learn to effectively play with an Ethersworn Canonist/Eidolon of Rhetoric on the battlefield. It gets scarier when Grand Abolisher is out, too. Eidolon, if you're playing Mentor especially, is a rough card. On it's own, it can limit the amount of tokens generated by each Mentor to one-per-turn. You also run a lot of creature removal which becomes dicey. If there's an Eidolon and you need to get rid of it, do yourself a favor and wait to cast the Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, etc until I have put a play on the stack. Responding to anything with a removal spell is 100% the way to do it, and I can't count the number of times a Mentor player will try and kill something during their turn using a Plow, and I have a Mental Misstep, and you can't respond to the misstep with your own. This interaction is weird, but it gets even weirder with a Grand Abolisher in play, essentially in two turns (mine and yours) you will only be able to use 1 spell. My suggestion is to counter Grand Abolisher if you can, or get rid of it as soon as possible.

Sideboard in any hate you might have against Mentor. Sometimes this doesn’t work, but Sulfur Elemental is pretty harsh to an opponent’s unpowered white weenie deck.

Removal is definitely key. If you are a deck that is light on removal and consistently dies to Hatebears decks, add cheap removal to your SB. If you’re playing Storm, you definitely need to think of spells like this as part of your Storm combo. If you’re not playing storm, are playing red, hate Null Rod, consider adding Ingot Chewer. Much of the protection this deck relies on is Misstep, which doesn’t work against Chewer.

Play planeswalkers. Yup. Until they print a Swords to Plowshares for planeswalkers in white, they will always be rough. Their abilities get around Thalia, they aren’t affected by Null Rod/Stony Silence, and they allow you to have a play every turn in an otherwise locked-down game.

Use Jace’s bounce ability. This is extremely annoying, especially since the deck is generally a 1-play-per-turn deck. Expect to have Jace absorb a few attacks after that.

If you’re playing a deck that scoops to Null Rod/Stony Silence, contemplate adding Surgical Extraction to the SB, especially if the metagame favors Null Rod decks (which I believe it currently does).

Be careful with fetchland openers. Or at the very least, play and crack them ASAP. Arbiter can shut off fetches and hurt your manabase as a result. You can get away with being on the play and depending on 2 fetches. After turn 2 there is a high likelihood an opponent will have Arbiter or will draw Arbiter and be able to play it. You can also trick them into thinking Arbiter is a great play if you use fetches, saving you a Thalia or Spirit of the Labyrinth turn.

Use Force of Will judiciously. This is a given, but it really matters here, especially if your only counters are Forces. Someone who knows the deck well can put me off the most hateful bears using Force of Will, someone who Forces a scary-looking creature might be surprised by what comes next. If your deck has a lot of counterspells, it’s a good idea to save one in your hand for Grand Abolisher, which will blank all of your counterspells until it’s dealt with.

Prepare to deal with Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares. If you’re running Misstep and have creature-based wincons, hold Misstep for the eventual removal spell.

If you’re playing Storm, go off on turn 1 or 2.

If you're playing a Mentor deck, don't worry, you got this.

If you’re playing on MTGO, shut off Arbiter BEFORE you try to fetch or search. The interface won’t prompt you to pay and you will throw away a land/tutor.

Cards that get around Spirit of the Labyrinth:
Scroll Rack
Dig Through Time
Any card that says “put X into your hand” instead of “draw”

More to come here too.

9. Things to try

Non-Budget cards (Kataki, War’s Wage, Wasteland) - these are both obviously good in this deck.

Thalia 2.0 - Can’t wait to test her.

Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void - With an Enlightened Tutor list, I think these would be fun cards to test.

10. Things I've Tried

Black Vise This card is good, but the slots are better given to something else. In a list that relies heavily on Enlightened Tutor and gets rid of Arbiter, I think it's a worthwhile card to have in the SB if there's room. I've had it win games, but also it's been dead. One thing that's good is you can redirect the damage to Planeswalkers if they play any, and I think this card is very good against Jace.

Magus of the Moat Never comes down. The SB slot is better given to something else.

11. Why U No?

Stoneforge Mystic/Battterskull/Jitte
Doesn’t combo with Leonin Arbiter. Equipment gets switched off by Null Rod/Stony Silence. Drawing Batterskull is terrible, and this deck needs great topdecks and as few dead draws as possible, least of all ones that are self-imposed and built into the main deck. Also, Batterskull is about 30 bucks online, Jitte is 30 bucks in paper.

Cavern of Souls
Doesn’t easily fit into the ‘budget’ category. Also this deck has too many different creature types for Cavern to be useful. There’s no need to fix mana, since the deck is monocolor. It’s almost more important to get safe land drops instead of ensuring our plays don’t get countered, and Cavern is vulnerable to Wasteland.

Karakas
Gives an opponent something to do with Wasteland, which is pretty bad. Haven’t found a good reason to include it, maybe if a build had Kataki there would be more to do with the bounce effect, but I’ve found that a basic Plains is just better.

Thorn of Amethyst
The thing about Thorns on legs is that the cost doesn’t go up for successive Thorn effects. The number of times I’ve had to hold a really effective Null Rod play in my hand because Thalia/Wingmare have priced it out of reach are enough to come to the conclusion that more Thorns aren’t the way to go.

12. Sample Maindecks

Intro List:

“Bears”, 1 CMC:
2x Mother of Runes
2x Dryad Militant
2x Judge’s Familiar
“Bears” 2-3 CMC:
2x Grand Abolisher
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Vryn Wingmare
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Leonin Relic-Warder

Artifacts
3x Null Rod

Spells:
4x Mental Misstep
4x Path to Exile

Lands:
1x Strip Mine
4x Ghost Quarter
14x Plains

This list has no mana acceleration and does a pretty good job at giving you amazing topdecks. Synergy is near 100%, since there's no artifacts switched off by Null Rod. This list also has no Enlightened Tutors, which has two effects... One is that Leonin Arbiter becomes extremely good, and two is that good cards need to be 4-ofs since there's no way to fish them out and they must be drawn off the top. Not necessarily a great list, but it is very very consistent and very easy to play.

Quick List

Creatures
2x Mother of Runes
2x Dryad Militant
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Grand Abolisher
4x Leonin Relic Warder
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
3x Vryn Wingmare

Artifacts/Enchantments
4x Null Rod/Stony Silence
1x Ghostly Prison

Spells
2x Enlightened Tutor
4x Mental Misstep
2x Path to Exile
1x Swords to Plowshares

Accel
3x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Lotus Petal

Lands
1x Strip Mine
4x Ghost Quarter
13x Plains

This list allows for a little bit more flexibility. With the Enlightened Tutors searching for things, this deck can make use of 1-ofs to a much greater effect and essentially diversify the deck without sacrificing a whole lot. One tradeoff is that Leonin Arbiter had to go, it became a liability in regard to Enlightened Tutor, and eliminating it made Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile much less good. This deck needs 4 Wastelands, which unfortunately aren't budget.

13. Upgrade Sequence

This deck is designed as a budget deck, but some readers might already have a few Vintage cards, or might want to work on acquiring more, or simply want to make the deck better. Here's some steps you can make to improve the deck:

Replace any Null Rods with Stony Silence. Null Rods have a tendency to get removed quickly, and Stony Silence is just better because less Vintage-played cards deal with it. This is an immediate upgrade if you went the Null Rod route.

Add Grafdigger's Cage, or even better, Containment Priest to the SB Both of these cards are extremely good against Dredge and Oath. One thing you need to decide, really is if you're playing this deck to help you get into Vintage, or if you're a big fan of Hatebears, Humans, or White Eldrazi. Priest is far better in these decks than Cage, but Cage is a better purchase because it easily goes into decks that don't run white.

Add Wastelands. Wasteland plays directly into the mana-denial strategy, and has many good targets in Vintage. If you have a full playset, I'd consider cutting two basics and two Ghost Quarters to make room for two more land destruction effects in the mainboard. If you feel like the deck could use all 4 Ghost Quarters, all 4 Wastelands and a Strip Mine, I'd recommend cutting a maximum of 3 Plains to make room, and one other underperforming card, which will usually be a metagame call.

More to come!

14. Thanks for reading!

Hopefully this will be updated once I get feedback and test a few more options. I repeat myself in several different sections, but I’m going to leave some of that in because it helps people find the info they need more quickly. I will say that my win rate has gone up with my current build, and that I’m confident that there’s enough in this deck to effectively deal with much of the current Vintage metagame, and there is enough room to improve on the basic shell and craft a sideboard that makes the deck better.

Good Luck!

@brass-man Of course, that has to be a consideration. 3/3s are relevant creatures against a puny white deck, and the Aggro Humans deck looks to be super difficult for my deck to deal with, as an example.

The good news is that Shops plays artifacts, and there's a lot of tech already out there that hates on artifacts as well as cards that are maindeckable that also tax a good portion of the field.

I don't for a second think that Shops is the only way to cast taxing cards, counting on Shops as the way to cast that type of card is pretty limiting at this point, imo. There are so many more options.

@desolutionist

I'm not even quite sure where you're imagining this is going... Are you telling me to play Workshop in a white/x Humans deck for a marginally useful card, or are you talking about Bridge being useful in the only deck that runs Workshop?

If you play brige off a full hand and somehow you have Workshop in that deck, and your follow up is a card not relevant to Shops you're worse off than if you just waited a turn and dropped Moat because you still have 5 cards in your hand. Or 4 or even 3 cards, they have an attacker they can swing in with. Even at 2 cards in hand they can swing with Revoker or a 2/2 Ballista.

I'd like to begin talking about 3-drops as "one mana source cards" since they can be cast off Lotus. What are we even talking about?

@desolutionist said in The Present and Future of "Taxing" decks?:

@dumpsterac1d

Doesn’t Moat cost 4 mana sources while Bridge only costs 1?

Assuming that effect is essential to the strategy, which I think it is given the speed of Aggro shops.

By definition, a Prison deck has to stop the opponent from being able to win. In this meta that’s stopping Delver, Pyromancer, Ravager, Overseer, Zombie tokens... you have to stop attacks before you can do anything

I'm sorry, but Bridge sucks...

Bridge doesn't cost 1 mana source, it costs 3 colorless. If I drop that as early as I can, say, turn 1 off of a Lotus or a land + crypt, my hand is at best, 4 cards large if I kept a 7. I'm not sure what other people are doing to dump their hands on turn 2 without reliably drawing more cards or replacing them, but my deck usually doesn't get to 1 card in hand until turn 4-ish. Which wouldn't stop Pyromancer tokens. Bridge seems terrible for "speed" unless you're fighting Oath or a deck full of Blightsteel Colossi. Personally? an effective Bridge shuts off my deck.

If we're talking the best cards that tax as many decks as possible, it seems difficult to find something better than Moat, or the mini-moat "I tax your attacks" effect that Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, Windborn Muse, Archangel of Tithes-ish cards have, in addition to Null Rod/Stony Silence, and possibly Suppression Field. Taxing attacks affects BUG, Pyro Delver, Shops, Dredge, and if P.O. decides to grab Mentor. Null Rod/Stony hits every deck except Dredge in some way and is great against P.O., Shops, and Vault/Key. Suppression Field has probably the widest application of all of these because it hits fetches, wastelands, man-lands, planeswalkers, Deathrite Shamans, Ballistas, etc etc.

@Griselbrother how is 3 mana prohibitive! I'm confused. Are people saying that any deck other than Shops has an impossible time generating enough mana to play 3-drops on turn 1 or 2? I think in the past week I've had 2 people drop Jace on turn 1 against me while I was holding a t1 3-drop. If you drop a Prison t1 or even t2 against Shops, They'll most likely have to make a decision of whether to attack or cast spells which can buy you time, and they can't pay for Prison with Shop mana. It's not the greatest thing in the world, but in combination with Null Rod, Suppression Field, targeted removal, etc, it can do work.

I think the problem is that people want a "Golden Gun" against any deck, like they want to bring in one card from the SB without thinking too hard and just draw it and then their opponent scoops. I can think of several combinations of the cards mentioned that, together, could incapacitate a Shops deck, and many others. Since they're incapable of running crippling taxing effects now and have basically stopped putting things like Tangle Wire into the deck, having 2 or even 3 cards that are really good against shops (but not golden gun good) is perfectly reasonable. I don't think they'll print this for us:

Magus of "I Kill Shops Decks"
U
Flash, Haste, Hexproof.
T: Destroy all artifacts your opponents control.
1/6

so... We might as well just pick things that have the broadest applications in Vintage and use a few of them. Personally, I have 3 Kataki, 3 Stony, 2 Muse, 3 Relic Warder and more, and I'm trying Suppression Field in the SB, but I'm not personally sure it fits into my deck yet. One thing I am quite sure about is that Ensnaring Bridge isn't going to work unless the deck is built around it, and with JUST Bridge and your hand at zero cards, I'm not even sure it would be effective when Ballista is a card.

Bridge seems decent. I like Moat Man better if I were to go that route though, as it's a Human, doesn't get priced out of reach by Thalia and Glowrider, and lets my fliers do their thing.

Question for everyone;

Are Taxing decks still in the realm of Shops variants, or are there enough cards elsewhere to get something reliably constructed and winning? I'm focusing on Humans, but I've heard mention of Eldrazi as well - what would that look like?

@chronatog said in The Present and Future of "Taxing" decks?:

This is a valid point. Perhaps because I think about taxing decks more in terms of different tribes, notably humans, I never thought about using fetch lands in such decks. And with the recent printing of Unclaimed Territory, I just can't help sticking to my guns. With 4x Caverns of Souls and 4x Unclaimed Territory perhaps it is possible to have a more stable five-color humans without fetch lands. Have you thought about this approach?

Unclaimed Territory is pretty cool, but my main reason for using Cavern isn't really fixing it's more ensuring that key cards actually hit the table. The fixing is coming from duals and fetches, and while UT would solve the fixing issue, I have 5 or so basics in the list which I'd love to be able to dig out against Shops, BUG, and Standstill variants.

With printing of Walking Ballista it is harder to protect life points from creatures, but perhaps Propaganda or Ghostly Prison are still good options (at least for sideboard). Have you tried either of them?

I wrote a detailed (now way outdated and abandoned) primer here about a list I had been developing last year that includes most of the things you're mentioning: http://www.themanadrain.com/topic/482/developing-budget-vintage-unpowered-white-hatebears/

And I wouldn't expect Wizards to print Magus of the Rod after they introduced an artifact themed block.

I honestly wouldn't put it past them, they've printed two Null Rods and keep replicating or slightly transforming cards that have relevant abilities. I think the problem with Null Rod Man in KLD is that it would have been a hoser for most decks in the format, it would have put a halt to all the trouble they put into developing the cards, and if they DID print it in an artifact-heavy set, it would have had to have been overcosted to adjust it ahead a few turns (think a 3/3 for 4CMC that's also a Null Rod, a.k.a unplayable anywhere but standard).

I like that the Muse is a 2/3 flying Propaganda. I don't like that she costs four mana and is a spirit. I thought about Peacekeeper

Peacekeeper seems good, especially that you can basically just stop paying at any point if you get ahead on board. I was initially thinking about Silent Arbiter, but I am trying out High Priest of Penance. Should act as a micro one-sided Moat anti-sweeper card of sorts.

@topical_island this has been my experience 100%. Even when it doesn't hit anything, the peek is extremely valuable. I also prefer this at 1/2 instead of 2/1 since it can take a hit from some minor sweepers and stay in play.

As an example of how this can win games, I dropped this g1 t1 in the blind, took a Paradoxical Outcome, and my opponent never recovered. Also noticed the coast was clear (no FOW) so next turn I didn't feel awkward throwing out Glowrider, and that was game.

Again, I think it's marginal-to-ineffective against shops and non-delver aggro decks and about 70% of the time I'd rather play something else in my hand, but it is definitely earning its spot. I encourage other people to test it if they're doing Humans.

@chronatog I have played all of those, and they are indeed very, VERY good cards, the main issue is that Suppression Field hits my fetches, it gets harder and harder to cast with all the Thorns (9 right now in my build), and it hits Ghost Quarter, Wasteland, Strip, Mother of Runes, etc. The other two are great as well, but unless they come down before a Thorn, it's pretty difficult to cast them. Shops has a 3-mana land that helps them avoid actually paying for taxing effects, and the best a Human deck with 9 Thorns can do is just stick with creatures as much as possible.

Same goes for spot removal in Instant form (Swords, Disenchant, etc). I really need to find those effects on legs in order for it to be included (which sucks, but there are options). If they ever print a Null Rod on legs, it's all over.

My SB plan against Dredge is Yixlid Jailer and a couple of Bojuka Bog, which might be swapped for Containment Priests. Oddly enough, a lot of the maindeck cards have game against Dredge, the taxing effects with help from Wasteland can stop Dread Return and Cabal Therapy from being a thing they can do, and having creatures means that just one block can exile all their bridges, so it's generally Dread Return or nothing for the first few turns. I also have Windborn Muse as a 1-of, but it hasn't come up in Dredge yet.

Altogether, I really think the sheer number of blanket hate cards in white, and the number of relevant Humans (And Cats, weirdly) increasing almost every set means the deck should be given a lot more consideration to than it currently is.

Resurrecting this to say that I have been trying it, and it is indeed very good in a Human deck. Not as a 4-of, but it gives you a peek, most of the games against Blue decks it gives you a card, and it lets you know the coast is clear if you need to drop something of importance after.

Likely doesn't make the cut because it isn't "prison-ish" enough for most people, or aggressive enough, but it has won me a couple games.

@moorebrother1 Interestingly enough, I was going to try out Deadeye Tracker for spot GY hate against Blue decks and Dredge. Just trying out as many Humans as possible in B/W to see what sticks. I have had a lot of success in general with another Ixalan Human, Kitesail Freebooter... Right now it's a 3-of, but I might need to cut 1 because I'm running into situations where it stays in hand while I'm playing Thalias or Glowriders instead. It is really good for information, and sometimes I can cast it off Cavern, steal a FoW, and then land a non-Human that ends up winning the game. I've taken Ancestral, Time Walk, Bargain, 3-Sphere, Sweepers, Drain, Lotus, removal, etc. It's a micro-TKS and comes down sooner. I like it a lot.

In a previous build I had Dryad Militant, but 1-drops that can't be cast off Cavern are super marginal in a format with 4 Missteps.

@Topical_Island Against Oath (and Storm) I have Aegis of the Gods. It sucks compared to Containment Priest since it's an Enchantment, but for now it's something that can be cast off Cavern and hold Oath activation at bay until they find something. (kind of like Priest in that way, I guess). The worst Oath development for us is Inferno Titan, by far.

Pre-board, I run 3 Relic Warders, 1 Windborn Muse, 4 Ghost Quarter, 1 Strip, 1 Kataki, and 2 Banisher Priest, and I've had success with 1 -2 Royal Asassin. I also run 1 MB Serene Master, and another in the SB. The do-nothing cards are blockers, usually, and Thalia 2 is great as well against many of the creatures. Post-board I increase the Kataki numbers to 3 and add in 3 Stony, removing some chaff like Ethersworn Canonist.

The main issue is an early Ballista or a Sphere if they're on the play, but so far in its current config I've lost 2 matches to Shops (admittedly only playing an average 1-2 games a day in the Practice room, I clearly need more reps), but pre-board I had enough cards against shops that an opponent yesterday literally thought I had built the deck to beat shops (exiled his first two plays with two Relic Warders), and that's pre-board, without 3x Kataki and 3x Stony. Most games Ive lost are usually due to mana screw in combo with not drawing my 5 basics or fetches for basics, or having to mull to 4.

Hope that explains a bit.

Also, by no means is this 100% solid "the answer to the metagame", but Kataki + Stony in play has resulted in an auto-concede every time it happens. That shops has gotten a lot more aggro doesn't help a bunch of 2/1's chances, but I think it has a much easier time than a blue deck just running Hurkyl's. Also picking up more tech on Friday that will help against more than a few aggro decks.