I happen to have the list of 11 decks that could not make top 32. They are:
Ravager Shops
Jeskai Mentor
Jeskai Mentor
Jeskai Mentor
Jeskai Mentor
Esper Mentor
Outcome
Outcome
Hatebears
White Eldrazi
Leovold BUG
It's a two deck meta at the bottom too... Its just the same decks throughout the tournament. It's not as if, Mentor is so good that it is pushing everything else out of the metagame.
I just scooped to the combo :D good games! Card was great in our games!
@Smmenen said in Cards to unrestrict:
@desolutionist said in Cards to unrestrict:
@Smmenen said in Cards to unrestrict:
If PO/Thirst/Gifts decks start rising up, the Mentor/Shops decks will just pack more Stony Silence/Null Rod and other cards like that, and they'll drop back down again, much like more Dredge leads to more GY hate.
First of all, PO and TfK are pretty awful cards. They definitely aren't deserving of being lumped into with Gifts Ungiven. Second, Stony Silence doesn't do enough on its own. I only play 7 artifact mana sources.
You ignored the other part of the sentence, which said "and other cards like that."
Specifically, in the case of combating Gifts decks, Grafdigger's Cage is a custom made hoser.
It's the single best anti-Gifts card ever printed, possibly. Since it stops Recoup effects like Snapcaster/JVP, and Tinker/Will simultaneously. If Gifts starts doing very well, you're going to be facing Cage much more often.
Thanks for the response, Steve!
Grafdiggers is good at shutting down Tinker and flashback effects, true, but it doesn't shut down Gifts Ungiven or Baral Chief of Compliance. The flashback effects bring about quick and easy wins, though it's still possible to navigate to lethal without the graveyard and to use Gifts Ungiven as a spell that grants free spells, mana, card draw, or counterspells.
What deck would play Grafdiffer's Cage?
Obviously it doesn't help Shops or Outcome since I bring in more than enough artifact hate already. So you must be talking about Mentor. By bringing in Cage, you're turning off your flashback spells as well; Mentor usually plays only 1 less flashback spell than most of the Gifts list I've played, so that's basically an even exchange; we're both hurt equally, maybe the Gifts deck a little more depending on the hands. The other thing to consider is that Gifts is siding out Tinker\BSC against a Dack/Plow deck. In its place I had been playing Subterranean Tremors but have recently switched to Empty the Warrens. In combination with the other cards that I bring in against Mentor (Leovold, Necropotence), there's a chance that Cage is meaningless.
One more aspect to Gifts that helps its immunity to any single "hate card", is that it is a control deck first, combo deck second. The tutoring power of Gifts Ungiven allows you to devote a very small portion of the deck to actually combo pieces, since you can bring them all up at once with just one card (Gifts Ungiven). This allows for more cards that interact with the opponent and less dead draws to make advantages as you're jockeying for position to cast a Gifts and win. Mental Misstep, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and cards like that make up the Gifts decks frontline defense.
Last but not least, this deck isn't dredge. It's flexible and attacks from more than one angle. If more Mentor players start bringing in Cage against me, I can adjust my sideboard plan accordingly and either take advantage of their tactic or counter it.
@ChubbyRain said in Cards to unrestrict:
@desolutionist said in Cards to unrestrict:
First of all, PO and TfK are pretty awful cards.
Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion...
Sorry Matt, I know you've been playing Thirsts. But Why would they be lumped together with Gifts? That doesn't make sense. Two complete opposite sides of the spectrum. One is artifact based generic draw. And the other is graveyard based Tutor. And then the way of dealing with this decks is the same as Dredge? Insane
If Gifts actually folded to Stony Silence, then why wouldn't I just be playing Outcome? 7. Artifacts.
@Smmenen said in Cards to unrestrict:
If PO/Thirst/Gifts decks start rising up, the Mentor/Shops decks will just pack more Stony Silence/Null Rod and other cards like that, and they'll drop back down again, much like more Dredge leads to more GY hate.
First of all, PO and TfK are pretty awful cards. They definitely aren't deserving of being lumped into with Gifts Ungiven. Second, Stony Silence doesn't do enough on its own. I only play 7 artifact mana sources. Baral is the primary mana engine now; it helps to easily and consistently dismantle Shop decks. From Jeskai Mentors perspective, your best bet against Gifts is to side out JVP and Delve spells for Rest In Peace to eliminate the quick and easy Gifts kill. And Shops just flat out doesn't stand a chance.
I just want to express my opinion that tournament data shouldn't be used when determining the restricted list. The reason for this is because people have a tendency to cling to one of three decks without thoroughly exploring all of the options; tournament data is a distorted lens through which to see Vintage as a whole.
Personally, for me, it's easy to win in a three deck metagame because I already know what to expect and can play a card like Ancient Grudge to hedge against 66% of the metagame. Though sometimes, late at night, I'll play against some Europeans on MTGO and get blown out by unique decks, such as UR Shops. While I routinely crush the traditional MUD lists, UR shops has just enough of a 'x' factor to win a majority of the time.
I just don't see that type of trial and error deck construction or willingness to experiment from the Americans. And really, that's why the American metagame sucks; doesn't have much to do with the restricted list at all.
@cutlex said in Cards to unrestrict:
I'm not sure I'll ever understand the sentiment that unrestricted Lodestone Golem was somehow worse for the format than Chalice would have been. As a longtime shop pilot, I experienced WAY more blowouts from Chalice than from the Golem. Golem rewarded metagame preparation and deck construction whereas Chalice randomly derped opening hands so hard that Ingot Chewer became the most played creature in the format.
Because it's way easier to beat a Chalice when you have more than 4 turns to do so.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/vintage-ubrg-39055#paper
Can people help me suggest a better name for this deck. "Gifts" would be fine.
Ponder is definitely restricted because of Gush. Ponder was a primarily used as an instrument of the Gush mana base; Vintage decks weren't playing "Opt" otherwise; they were playing Accumulated Knowledge and Thirst for Knowledge. If Gush were never unrestricted, Ponder would have never seen play. They restricted Gush, Brainstorm, Scroll, and Ponder all at once so people just threw in restricted Ponders into what used to be Brainstorm slots.
If you could go back to 2005 and cut your Thirsts for Ponders, you get blown out. It's fairly comical to imagine.
I've said it when it happened and I'm saying it now. Ponder was the stupidest restriction the DCI ever came up with, even stupider than Gitaxian Probe. (People are only now realizing that DCI is incompetent???). Ponder is not even worth talking about unrestricting because it's so stupid that you get dumber just be trying to understand what the DCI is thinking
With regards to Flash, it could probably come off but then we would actually have another brainless, but good deck in the format. So it's a losing proposition for my tastes. It wasn't so much that Flash was broken, but it was boring. "Oh you have land, Mox, Flash? I guess you win! Play again? Oh land, Mox, Flash? Okay good games!" Do you want matches to go like this?