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posted in Workshops read more

The list absolutely needs some more testing and tuning, but don't let the "3 card combo" fool you. True, 3 card combos are traditionally weak, but when you play Mystic Forge you rapidly start churning through 6 or 7 cards in a turn, so your chance of finding the other two cards shoots up. Having either Top or Inspector means you draw even more. In almost all of these games I end up playing Ballistas and Walkers at 0 mana, putting them right into the yard, to dig for the kill cards.

My sample size is still low, but in something like 20 goldfishes, I've never had slower than a turn 3 kill. Sometimes it comes from the full Forge/Inspector/Top combo, sometimes it's Forge drawing a bunch of moxes to sack to a Ravager, sometimes it's just an early plating with no Forge at all.

I'm sure many (if not all) of these draws would be slowed or stopped by Force of Will, Force of Vigor, Shattering Spree, etc, and when you're talking about Memnites even the smallest blockers can make a difference, but if we're JUST measuring goldfish speed, the deck is easily a consistent turn 3, if not faster.

posted in Workshops read more

@zias I think Orb of Dreams stops the Divining Top from being a kill entirely. It comes into play tapped, so you can't use it to draw a card the turn you play it, so you can't use it to draw your whole library with Foundry Inspector.

You could still just draw a bunch of cards with Forge, and maybe sacrifice the Orb to Ravager on a turn you plan on winning, but I suspect you wouldn't want to run Orb and Top in the same list.

Another approach to the deck could be using Forge just as a value play instead of a kill, in which case adding Orb and cutting Top isn't so bad. Sphere might not be terrible in that sort of list either.

posted in Workshops read more

@jimtosetti no problem, there's a lot of Forge threads going on at once right now 🙂

posted in Workshops read more

@jimtosetti that's fine, but this is a thread specifically talking about how to use the new card in a specific workshop aggro/combo deck. It'd be better if we kept metadiscussions about whether wotc is doing a good job in the community board, or at least the single-card-discussion thread about Mystic Forge.

I think it makes quite a bit of sense to get into the technical qualitative values of a card if you're trying to figure out how to play with it, or against it. I would hope that most TMD users are interested in that sort of thing.

If every decklist thread was filled with commentary about which cards are mistakes, it would be impossible for anyone to talk about Vintage between all of the "Black Lotus is too good" posts.

posted in Single-Card Discussion read more

@khahan said in [M20] Mystic Forge:

Having a ravager and this in play basically means your opponent always has to consider the next turns attack lethal - even if he's at 20 health.

Ah but Ravager can pump a creature the turn you play it, which means your opponent has to consider the next attack lethal if you have ANY creature in play.

@Wagner said

However, Top is a pretty bad card to play in Shops in general since it has very little shuffle effects.

This is true, but it's not completely worthless. Arcbound Ravager cycles Tops by stacking the draw trigger and then sacking it. Karn lists that already run Voltaic Key can use the Key-Top combo to draw an extra card each turn. And you can flip top on your upkeep, draw it and cast it, to ... uh ... untap Traxos, Scourge of Kroog.

Okay that last one was a stretch.

posted in Workshops read more

@boogdish said in Tiny Forgebots:

I think Reality Hemmorage or Complete Disregard may be possible sideboard cards to remove a Collector Ouphe as they can both be played off the top of the deck while Forge is in play. Might need to rejigger the manabase a little for it though.

This is interesting, I hadn't considered the Devoid spells, but I'm not sure you could run them with the mana as-is. This post reminded me of Spatial Contortion. It should be easier to cast Contortion than Hemmorage or Disregard, but amusingly it's ALMOST as hard to get colorless mana as it is to get a specific color. The list has 8 colorless sources, vs 4 of any specific color. Neither seems that consistent. I think if you really wanted a removal spell, you might have to just run Dismember and accept the fact that you can't play it off of Forge. A handful of extra colorless mana (Wastelands? Grim Monoliths?) could change that though.

posted in Workshops read more

@protoaddict said in Tiny Forgebots:

Speaking of combo, has anyone tried throwing a salvagers in here?

Surely not in this Workshop build, right? The deck has Petal/Pearl/Lotus/Opal for 4 total white sources (assuming the 2nd Opal gets cut for Lotus). LED would make it 5, but you can't cast Salvagers with LED. You'd need to change a lot of cards before you could ever expect to cast a white spell consistently, even if you didn't mind the fact that you can't play Salvagers off of Forge.

Maybe there's a Salvagers/Forge deck but I'm guessing it wouldn't share a lot of cards with this one.

posted in Workshops read more

My thinking on Chalice is that you play it at 0 and just run your 0 drops into it. You basically get to cycle your dead-to-Chalice cards and your opponent doesn't. If you assemble the combo you're still lethal with a Chalice-0 in play, and if necessary you can sack it to a Ravager. Playing it at 1 cuts off the combo, but could still be sometimes correct, as you can cycle your 1's and the rest of your deck is just workshop aggro.

Remains to be seen if it's worth the slot in practice, but Chalice 0 on the play is so strong it's hard to pass up.

posted in Workshops read more

@protoaddict said in Tiny Forgebots:

LED does not feel combo to me, since you are playing off the top for the most part. I guess part of my question would be how many cards are you holding in hand on average and saving for later vs how much are you just trying to draw gas to make things go.

There's basically not any reason to hold anything in your hand. You're kind of playing everything you can cast, whether you have a combo draw or an aggro draw, so that part of LED isn't really a problem. My concern with LED is that it's "win more", only working with Forge which is probably already going to win you the game whether or not you have LED.

This is different than Cranial Plating, which can do something with Memnite or your other threats that they can't do on their own. Plating probably turns your 7-turn clock into a 2 or 3-turn clock, but LED turns your Forge from a 1-turn clock into ... a slightly more consistent 1-turn clock. It's a lot less bang-for-your-dead-card. This is all conjecture though, if it turns out that LED or another pure-combo card consistently speeds the deck up a turn, then it's probably worth it.

posted in Workshops read more

In general, my instinct is to keep combo-specific cards (like LED) out of the deck... But that's just the way I build decks. If someone adds Keys and LEDs and it speeds up the goldfish by a turn, it's probably worth it!