@desolutionist said in Conspicuous Snoop:
Yeah the cool thing about goblins is you have that combo potential but also can just play dudes and attack with some mild disruption like Null Rod. As far as activated abilities go: there's Krenko Mob Boss.
Earwig Squad comes to mind as something that's been good for me in Vintage. There's some good goblins for destroying artifacts/eldrazi.
Nevermind Goblins can still just play like a turn 3/4 aggro deck on the back of Lackey, Piledriver, and Warchief. If only it had Chalice.
I see no reason you wouldn't just play old-fashioned Grixis Toolbox Goblins with countermagic, red blasts, the 3 cmc armies in a can, and Earwig Squad. That devotes the same dedicated six combo cards (4x Snoop, 2x Kiki) that Oath does. Grixis also gives you Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal.
Also, I think this is a VERY consistent turn 2 kill. Eg. Turn 1 Recruiter (Snoop, Torch Courier, Kiki), Turn 2 play Snoop, Play Courier, Sac Courier, Go Infinite, Copy Recruiter to put Fanatic on top. I think some combination of Lightning Bolt and countermagic disrupts most of the disruption, too.
Is it better than storm stuff, though? It's immune to Flusterstorm but weaker to FoW.
The condition seems trivial to meet with most aggressive combo decks or even a random Hermit Druid. Is a Hermit Druid shell better than just playing Dredge, though? Paradoxical Outcome boarding in 4x Druid, 4x Narcomoeba, 1 Dread Return, 1 Sun Titan, 1 Mirrodin Besieged is...certainly a response to rods and Thalias. Is it good, though? Oath isn't likely to both have the artifacts AND want this over Griselbrand.
The huge difference is +1 damage. If you Gempalm on turn 2, you're not usually getting your Lackey past a typical Vintage turn 1-2 blocker. Being able to turn 1 Lackey, turn 2 this and actually get to use your lackey is a big deal. Consider that Gempalm doesn't even kill Baby Jace in its 0/2 form until after the block.
Also, and I know it hasn't been widely adopted yet, but this can hit Karn directly. I strongly suspect that Karn the Great Creator is secretly the most broken card in Vintage right now as it shuts down multiple archetypes game 1 either directly with its passive or indirectly by fetching a silver bullet. Unlike Jace's 0, which might or might not find something great, Karn finds things like Tormod's Crypt, Ensnaring Bridge, and Trinisphere with 100% accuracy. They aren't usually worth maindecking, but they can be absolutely brutal out of the sideboard. To take advantage of it, I think you just want something like Legacy 8 Moon with more Goblins and Karns and less Chandras.
This is everything Gempalm Incinerator wanted to be. I'm not sure Goblins has a place in post-London Vintage, but if it does it's because the two-drops are dramatically improving. With any luck, they'll print an insane hate card against Modern Affinity that will sufficiently damage Shops.
People will laugh, but Karn the Great Creator Goblins has a decent chance of being viable. Mind you the Goblins will mostly be Rabblemasters...
I barely have time to cube and go to prereleases these days, but I think Goblins are probably competitive again. A few things took Goblins out of the picture:
- Critters started showing up in brown lists and blocking goblins
- 4x Mentor meant that a single Jester's Cap effect wasn't lethal
- Eldrazi got printed and are actually much harder to kill than artifact critters
- Abrade Goblin is maindeckable as a 4x and kills all the colorless and brown problems that can ruin your day
- Mentor got restricted, greatly increasing the value of cap effects vs Xerox engines
- Legion Warboss is everything Rabblemaster needed to be: go-wide, pumps Lackey, makes hasty tokens to hit planeswalkers. Unlike Rabblemaster, it doesn't force your other gobs to make bad attacks.
- Trashmaster lets you trade up vs brown
- Warboss + Trashmaster let you go back to being an aggro-combo deck vs Xerox and aggro-control vs brown. Earwig Squad "combo" isn't a sufficient angle of attack vs Xerox anymore and you had too slow a clock without it.
- Assassin's Trophy lets you switch from Grixis to Jund and adds redundant disruption against everything but fast combo (where Earwig Squad seemingly still does all the work you need). It's cute that it gives a maindeck answer to Oath, too.
Anyways, I think these recent printings probably bring Gobs back. I'm happy to help people brew if they're interested.
Cockatrice is a great place to test. There's not another electronic platform that 90% of the people who play vintage use. Nope. Just cockatrice.
I'm not a big fan of renting digital cards. It's kind of dubious to invest in an online platform when the content owner you're renting from is actively investing in a new platform and won't move your cards over onto it. Just sayin'...
No promises of optimality, but this has failed to fail in brief testing. The Containment Priests are almost surely an error as is Chandra. Fanatic and Trashmaster are the real deal. Maybe Yixlids? Dunno. I haven't played in a while, but Trashmaster was worth firing up Cockatrice for.
2 Damping Sphere
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Tin Street Hooligan
2 Cheering Fanatic
4 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Goblin Matron
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Goblin Trashmaster
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mana Confluence
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
2 Dack Fayden
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Containment Priest
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancient Grudge
@protoaddct said in [BBD] Cheering Fanatic:
I mean, is it viable outside of goblins? The fact that it is a gob does not change the fact that its ability is relevant to any deck that can pull it off. It can ramp you into a turn 2 JTMS or Karn for instance.
It seems craptacular as ramp unless you care that it's a Goblin or you abuse the fact that it's a cost reduction and play something many many times. My first thought was something like 2x Top + Prowess, but that fails in a variety of ways.
@13nova I think you're very confused. Wizards intentionally has gone many years without printing a new, playable Goblin specifically because they were so oppressive in Legacy. Moreover, they would be oppressive in Legacy if Goblin Recruiter was unbanned. Food Chain isn't in Modern.
As to the removal and combo you listed, Earwig Squads have always given Goblins a strongly favorable matchup against combo. It used to have a favorable matchup against Oath, but it always had a poor matchup against Brian Kelly. The removal you mention doesn't do anything against Squee or Food Chain.
You seem to have misread the card: it's a 2/2 and you get the bonus from just declaring the attack. I'm pretty sure this is red Lotus Cobra. Is that Vintage playable? Dunno. The big thing holding back Food Chain Goblins is that there's no obvious kill. You can reliably make infi mana every game, but you have no good outlets that don't require a non-Goblin tutor.
Vintage Goblins would probably be something like New Squee Food Chain Gobs. You can pretty reliably get infi mana, but then what? You don't really want a deck full of Ringleaders. Matrons are acceptable if only because of the flexibility, but I don't recall a goblin infi mana outlet. You'd be into something like Siege Gang Commander?
So, you run "grixis control gobs" with 4 Food Chain, New Squee, and Siege Gang. Make infi mana with Food Chain and Squee, then use Siege Gang as a way to convert infi mana and infi New Squee sacs (can be cast from grave) into infi damage?
This might be a deck if only because it can approach a two card combo of unrestricted parts, one of which is insanely redundant (Recruiter = Matron = Ringleader = tutors = ...) and the other is an enchantment.
On second thought, that could be really good. Combo vs shops. Earwig plan vs blue combo. Spellbomb and Welder game 1 vs Dredge. The real question is how you build around Food Chain to achieve the explosion.
Do Snow Duals fix the problem or do the best decks just have both?
They have some sort of strange internal deliberations that they refuse to discuss outside WotC at all, but MaRo has said repeatedly that he hates that Reserve List. If he's asking the question in the first place, advocating specifically and directly for snow duals is almost certainly the best place to focus your energy if you want the List circumvented.
Yes, it's silver-bordered. My question is, would this be Vintage playable? Assuming you're willing to spend half as much on your Nerf blaster as on your Force of Wills, you can probably discharge 144 darts.
Downside, you have to pick up 144 darts.
My thought is that you can't reliably cast a 5 mana sorcery, but that it would reliably do 20 damage.