@ajfirecracker Might be, doesnt really matter here. "Fetchland" is just even more of a vague term than "Xerox" and will have new or even experienced players asking: What makes this a "Fetchland" Deck and not all these other Decks that all clearly use fetchlands as one of the most important parts of their manabase?
This is basically the kind of question we want to get away from since people are confused why some decks are considered "Xerox" and others are not, while both use a ton of cantrips (and cantrips often beeing cited as a feature of Xerox Decks)
What's your favorite name for the broad category of decks that includes Delver and Jeskai Mentor and Rug Pyromancer and Snapcaster Control?
While i think its fine to put Delver, Jeskai Mentor and Rug Pyromancer together in one category, the outlyer seems to be Snapcaster Control, or any Deck that is a control deck, but is currently classified as Xerox just because it uses Restricted draw spells and a number or preordains. I would make a distinction between Tempo Decks and Control decks. This is a strategy that works quite well in other formats, and currently iam not aware of a reason why it shouldnt work in Vintage.
In legacy there exist a bunch of Tempo decks (using delver, shadow, pyro or mander as threats) and seperate from that there exist decks like Grixis Control, UWr Control and Miracles. They all have in common that they use a similiar cantrip suite in 4x Brainstorm, 4x Ponder and then some preordains or even other cantrips. This doesnt make them all Xerox decks in the eyes of the legacy players. It just makes them blue decks, using cantrips but following very different strategies.
Do you think the way the lines are drawn between archetypes now makes sense? Do Delver and Jeskai Mentor belong in different categories? Outcome and Storm? Should any categories be combined, like Landstill and Big Blue?
I would advocate for a naming convention that consists of a unmistakable combination of keywords
- Main categories of : Combo, Control, Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, Prison
- Specific cards or mechanics: Storm, PO, Dredge, Survival, Landstill, Delver, Stax...
- Color idedification: UW, monobrown, UWR, Grixis...
- Conventions, localisation, credit: Long.dec, trix, european style...
I think every deck can be described by just a few of these keywords.
For example if we take a list that is currenly might just be called "UR Xerox" you have no idea weather this is a Tempo Deck or a Control Deck, it might play delver, it might play Pyro, it might not play any of these and pack a bunch of snapcasters.
Here i would advocate for naming something: UR Delver, UR Control, UR SnapPyro ...
Just dont bunch of all these decks together with "Xerox", rather split them up and bunch them together with the other big categories like Tempo or Control.
What sort of user interface changes could be made to promote those stated four goals, regardless of what the categories are named. Feel free to think outside the box and suggest features the site does not currently support.
Change the "Decks to Beat" section on the Front Page with "Vintage Metagame" and have the big Categories presented there: Combo, Control, Tempo, Aggro, Midrange, Prison. Each of them offer a short discription of the archetpye and a primer to the most common Decks in this archetype as well as all threads about decks in this category. Keep in mind some of them might fit into multiples like Ravager Shops, which in my opinion is Aggro and Prison and should be displayed in both those categories.
There is a problem here ofcourse, how do we get all these primers up, and how can you make sure that each thread lands in its category? I still believe that a tag system is the key to categorisation. I know it didnt work in the past, because way to few people used the system, but i think making it mandatory to choose at least one of the huge archetypes as a tag before beeing able to submit a "Decks" thread would take care of that.
The other problem is ofcourse who writes these primers? We could just hope that the glory that comes with beeing the big primer everybody sees when looking for a deck is incentive enough. Maybe you could give poople the "TMD Supporter" or another batch to give them something in return for writing and maintaining a primer. For these primer threads i would like to see that the original post is updated to adjust for reasonable meta changes to always display a current decklist and strategy. A possibility to choose which primer is selected to be the face of a decktype you could maybe automatically display the post (tagged with primer) that has the most upvotes currently, making it kind of peer reviewed (hopefully not making it a popularity contest) A Problem with such a system could be that older primers could amass a ton of upvotes compared to newer primers, not representing the "best" primer neccesarily. To combat this there could be a "must have been updated in the last x month" clause to be considered as the primer of choice.
Even if you accept that you should Mulligan until you hit a Leyline, the most valuable Leyline is the 1st one you put in your deck - each subsequent Leyline (starting already with the 2nd) suffers from diminishing returns
Each Leyline above the first ups the probability of you having it in your opening hand, making your strategy of mulliganing to the first one incredibly bad if you only play 1 and way better if you play the maximum amount of leylines.
I really dont get why this is even an argument at all... You play 4 bazaars, not because you always want a second bazaar but because you really want to have a bazaar in your opening hand, you should be very familiar with this concept.
If the tokens are creature tokens and can exist in different states, than i think bringing a couple is helpful.
one token + dice for each untapped and tapped elemental token maybe. you could go above and beyond by including tokens that are summoning sick and stuff like that, but i think in general its about 2 things:
Making the gamestate easily readable for both you and your opponent. If you are using different kinds of tokens in different states than just dice tend to make the gamestate very confusing.
Personal preference and expression is also a thing for sure, some people take pride in their custom tokens.
@brass-man The two properties that make leyline special amongst other hate pieces are:
- it is probably best hate piece IF you have it in your opening hand.
It is uncounterable, it is free, it is assymetrical, the effect is very potent , it is down on turn 1 no matter if you start on the play or on the draw.
- it is probably one of the worst hate pieces if you draw it later in the game.
If you would draw Leyline, the card is horrible, a lot of decks would have to use extensive resources (crack lotus, use dark ritual etc.) to be able to cast it, or not beeing able to cast it at all and to make matters worse it wont exile anything that is already in your opponents graveyard. However: this downside is so very greatly reduced if you already have a leyline in play from your opening hand and are just drawing your second one. In that case, it most likely doesnt really matter that you have drawn it, since your opponent is already very much desperate to handle your first one which will give you enough time and resrouces to either win, or if you really have no other option cast your second one.
I think these attributes make Leyline very special compared to your peers. In my eyes the whole reason to play Leyline is to have it in your opening hand, if not its just so much worse than other options.
In very extreme terms: Leyline is possibly game winning in your opening hand and absolutely useless outside of it. Logically it should follow that either you want to maximize the possiblity of having it in your opening hand, or just eliminate it all together and go for other options.
I think the 0 or 4 folks are assuming you have to mulligan for Leyline or it's a wasted slot, and the "1-3 is sometimes reasonable" folks are imagining that you don't particularly mulligan for Leyline, and accept that sometimes you start with it and sometimes you don't
"sometimes you start with it, and simetimes you dont" is not a 50/50 thing, it can be modified by playing more or less leylines, and thats the whole point of playing 4 of them. This is like saying "you sometimes win the lottery and sometimes you dont" which is completely ignoring that there is a propability underlying those events.
Also as i explained over and over again in the posts above it is not about always mulliganing to a leyline, it is mulliganing to a keepable hand, while keepable hands are either very broken and fast, or nearly all hands with a leyline in them. Leylines just up the count of keepable hand by a ton. All of this still in the context of playing DPS and following the 'broken or hate' strategy.
@chubbyrain yeah i dont Leylines are the way to go in that kind of deck either. I think i would want a solid mixture of different hate pieces, kind of like you discribed.
@ajfirecracker The Wasteland argument is pretty compelling yeah.
I guess me leaning to the side of Spellbomb at first is too optimistic and too greedy. How often will the one additional card actually matter if you risk getting missteped or beeing a turn to slow for it? I guess this would be a whole different thing if we would not be playing against pitch dredge. When not in danger of getting misstepped the extra card might just counteract the tempo loss.
Alright a different topic: If you are playing black and lets say you have 2 slots left, would you rather fill them with Spellbomb or Crypt? I guess it depends on the deck, for the sake argument, lets say we are playing BUG leovold. I would naturally tend towards Nihil, but the misstep argument weighs a lot.
@ChubbyRain Yeah i thought i must have misunderstood since tutoring for leyline doesnt really make sense I would not play Leyline as a 1 of as the last card though, its just not using the one huge upside that leyline has over other hate pieces to its full potential. And i believe Leyline is a card, that if you are not using it to its full potential, its just not as good as other options in the slot.
To be honest i did not expect the "Leylines strengh over other pieces is its starting hand ability and this probability should be maximised if possible, otherwise why play it over other pieces" to be such a controversial statement
@aelien Again, I think it's more complex. You could argue that if you are running Demonic Tutor that it's worth it to also run a copy of Tormod's Crypt as that makes Turn 1 Land + Mox + DT into Crypt a keepable hand. You could also argue that if you are running Vampiric Tutor or even Dark Petition, that you want a copy Yixlid Jailer as that makes hands involving those cards potential keeps based on them ultimately culminating into a Yixlid Jailer. You don't necessarily want redundant copies of those cards since they aren't always the strongest, but a single copy makes the deck better.
I would absolutely never want to play a 1 of leyline with the reason beeing "you can tutor it up". All those hate pieces are fine, and diversifying is fine, if you want to run a bunch of 1 ofs, its fine, if you want to run 4 leylines and in addition other hate pieces, its fine. However IF you decide to run any number of Leylines it should be 4 if possible, and as long as there are no tutors you can use to find a leyline before the game starts, than this holds and all the tutor talk doesnt change anything about that.
You ended up with some pretty crazy sideboards with this strategy. I won a local event running "Humanstorm - A Brian Kelly Deck, beating Dredge 3 times in 8 rounds. My sideboard against Dredge was 2 Containment Priest, 1 Crypt, 1 Cage, 1 Ravenous Trap, but because I had access to Demonic, Vampiric, Tinker, Trinket Mage, etc, it felt like I was running 9 hate card post board. Not all plays were conventional.
And that sounds great! This is a perfect example of a 0 Leyline sideboard. 4 or none.
So if Leyline of the Void had the Relentless Rats ability and you could run any number, you would run either 75 or 0? And anybody who ran "only" 10 was clearly building their deck incorrectly?
Obviously this is ridiculous, since you will water down your deck to the point of not functioning at some point. What point is that actually? I dont know, but we are so low on our limit (4) that for all intents and purposes the maximum playable amount is the optimal one.
For example: Maybe you have 6 slots to devote to the matchup and you want the first 4 to be Grafdigger's Cage. Is there actually anything wrong with including 2 Leylines as your 5th and 6th hate pieces?
Yes i would consider that very much suboptimal, Leylines just dont work very good as a 2 of. You will have way too many games where you will not have Leyline in your opening hand, mulliganing to find one is incredibly risky since the probability to hit one is fairly low and to make matters worse the card is pretty bad if you draw it. You want Leyline in your opening hand as much as possible, if you are not going for that effect, is see no reason to play it over other hate pieces.
i see, let me explain my position.
If 5 Leylines were legal there would probably be folks saying to play 5 or 0 and that 4 was definitely a mistake. They might even be right.
If those folks were right, it would imply that 0 Leylines is preferable to 4 and nobody should run 4 Leylines in the actual format.
5 is only preferrable if you are allowed to play 5 and are willing to concede 5 sideboard slots in your list.
This slightly misrepresents my statement. The question is not:
"is 4 the perfect number, and are all numbers (apart from 0 as an alternative), wrong?"
It is instead: "is 4 the optimal number considering deckbuilding constraints (4 copy rule) and not taking up too much sideboard space and under the assumption that you want to go the 'i either keep a broken hand or a hand with very strong GY hate' route."
for that reason i rule the
4 is just the perfect number and 5 would be wrong and the hypothetical 5 leyline people are mistaken. In this case "4 or 0" is the wrong policy and you should play 4.
Iam not saying that 0 is not an option if you want to play other hate instead and consider a different stratey than the 'i either keep a broken hand or a hand with very strong GY hate' route. iam just saying IF you want to go down that specific path, then Leyline is the best choice, but also only if you are willing to play the maximum allowed possible while still not overstocking your sideboard.
for that reason i rule the
Leyline is just the greatest and you should play as many as they will let you. In this case "4 or 0" is the wrong policy and you should play 4.
If the core principle of this strategy is to maximize the possibity of having one of the both acceptable hands than you would not want to play any random number of leylines. This should be pretty trivial.
There's not really a clear correct number of leylines and you can run 2 or 3 or whatever, just try to build the best deck you can, maybe 4 maybe something else. In this case "4 or 0" is the wrong policy and you might end up playing any number.
does not make sense if we say you have 4 SB slots to fill and you want to follow the 'hate or broken' strategy.
Now if you are not willing to have 4 slots solely dedicated to dredge hate, then we have a whole other story like in this scenario:
Let's say I think Leyline of the Void is the current best SB card against Dredge. Let's say, because of deck and metagame considerations, I think that 3 slots for Dredge is appropriate given PO's explosiveness and the need to sideboard effectively for other decks in my metagame. Why should I not play three copies of Leyline of the Void in this deck?
If you are only willing to commit 3 slots but you still want to play the 'hate or broken' strategy, then filling these 3 slots with the maximum possible amount of Leylines is still ok, not because 3 is better than 4, but just because we rule 4 out in the first place by only freeing up 3 slots. However, since leylines lose their power so quickly while going down in numbers, i would absolutely consider not to play the strategy at all, and going for the 0 to run other hate instead.
Just to come around again: IF 5 leylines where legal AND i was willing to dedicate 5 slots in my SB to Dredge hate AND i want to play the 'hate or broken' stratey then yes, 5 leylines would be correct to play.
Under those circumstances are 6 leylines correct? 7,8..? This comes down to how much you are willing to water down your deck and lower the other possible keep propability 'broken'.
Edit: Just to make this short i will sum up my stance here:
If you are willing to play 4 SB slots AND you want to play the 'broken or hate' strategy, then 4 Leylines are the correct amount to chose, because Leyline is the most powerful hate piece for this strategy and 4, as the maximum legal number, will give you the optimal achievable propability of this strategy working.
If you do NOT want to play the 'broken or hate' strategy, then i would recommend 0 leylines and other hate pieces instead.
@chubbyrain There are two kinds of hands that i will keep against Dredge game 2: A hand with Leyline in it, or a very powerful and fast hand (turn 1 or 2 win). If i dont have these i will mulligan. Playing 4 leylines just ups the chance of a winnable starting hand.
There is no reason to keep a 'playable' starting hand without a leyline, since it probably wont win fast enough, and if i draw Leyline, its just bad.
If your strategy is to have an opening seven that does something incredibly broken on turn 1-2 OR hit a powerful dredge hate piece, then I disagree. You might be OK with the 32% of hitting a leyline in your 7 and not need the 40% chance as long as you think Leyline is the best hate piece available.
I disagree, espescially if this is your strategy, then 4 leylines are the best option for sure. If this is your strategy, why would you make one of the two possiblities (keeping a hand with a hatepiece) much lower propability, while ony very very slightly upping the probability of your other (broken hand) option by playing only 3 leylines instead of 4?
If the answer is: "well you could just play 2 or 3 leylines and then a couple of other hate pieces, that are not as powerful in your opener, but they are also not dead if you draw them later" Then the strategy of keeping one of those two kinds of hands is just not good anymore, since now you are making the keeping a hand with a hatepiece option worse by making it a much lower powerlevel hatepice (for example crypt).
Against Dredge i go for the two option strategy, and i go hard on both options: Broken hate, or broken starting hand, no diluting, no inbetween. Iam not saying this is the only winning strategy, but if you are following this strategy than 4 leylines are your best option.