Him and the BUG guy are very much playable. Magus of the Chalice seems incredibly good. Iam glad wizards does not shy away from printing powerful new cards.
However the modern magic design heavily favouring creatues and creature based decks, printing hate for spells and not printing powerful spells anymore concerns me a lot. (Yes i know they printed cruise and dig, but not because they wanted to pront good spells, but because they underestimated the power).
One of the reasons i love vintage is that it is not another boring creature based format, that spell based decks are not only viable but very strong and that creature combat is not the only good win condition. I fear that if the modern design philosophy will go on, in time Vintage will be a creature dominated format as well...i dont want to play just a fast modern.
Best posts made by Aelien
RE: [CN2] Sanctum Prelate
Him and the BUG guy are very much playable. Magus of the Chalice seems incredibly good. Iam glad wizards does not shy away from printing powerful new cards.
RE: Thoughts on restrictions
I am very glad that you are not on the R&D team, they are already going way to hard in that direction.
Lets just make Vintage like every other format! Playing a 2 drop creature on turn 2, winning by attacking, interacting by blocking. Wouldn't it just be so unfair if somebody could counter your cool creature? lets make them all uncounterable, we wouldn't want someone to interact with you outside of combat. Somebody drawing more cards than 1 a turn seems kind of unfair, lets stop that with something...i know how about an ability on a 2/2 so we can attack and block with it?! Uh this guy is trying to produce more mana on turn 1 or is trying to not play basic lands, that seems kind of unfair, i am not doing that so he shouldn't be able to do so as well! Lets get something that hoses non basic lands or any kind of mana acceleration, better lets put that on a creature! This other player wants to play multiple spells in a single turn, i don't understand that, isn't it supposed to be 1 (creature) spell a turn? Lets enforce that by...mmh let me think...putting some hate on a creature! That player is trying to win by some kind of spell or combination, that seems complicated and unfair to me, he should try to win like everybody else by attacking with creatures! The proper way!
Don't draw cards!
Don't win by casting non creature spells!
Don't put 2 things on the stack at once!
Don't counter my creatures, in fact lets just get the stack out of here!
Don't cast more than 1 spell each turn.
Play 1 land a turn
Play 1 creature a turn
Alright i am sorry for the rambling, you probably get how i fell about that design approach.
RE: April 16, 2018 Banned And Restricted Announcement
Not having changes here and Forthythes comment on workshop lowering the possibility of a restriction makes me glad. Not because I don't think workshop is a problem in the current meta, but because i believe restricting it is the wrong way to fix this. I would still rather see a bunch of other cards unrestricted to power up the rest of the format to properly compete with shops.
RE: Vintage MTGO Dailies
I would love to play in those dailies but im just not willing to invest in mtgo. Im building my first real Paper Vintage deck atm and that just has priority over mtgo. If the software would be better i would probably consider it, but as it is its not worth the money for me.
As soon as some of the cards in Kaladesh where spoiled i began brewing in my head. The whole set is great for Jonnys and is full of potential, especially in vintage where powering out artifacts and casting blue spells is as old as the format itself.
With the following post keep in mind that i could not test this deck in the amount and quality to my liking. I did however spend this weekend in front of my PC and played as many matches with this deck as possible.
The deck builds around two new cards: Aetherflux reservoir and Paradoxical Outcome.
The goal of the deck is to stick a Reservoir on the table and then cast as many spells as possible to gain life and nuke your opponent for 50. Paradoxical Outcome is one of the best enablers in this regard, i think this card can truly become a big player in vintage, it is incredibly powerful if resolved. If played on a board state with enough cheap repayable artifact mana, this card draws ridiculous amounts of cards and often even generates mana to keep going, chaining them together works great.
Do not underestimate this card: Resolving a paradoxical outcome on a board with Aetherflux Reservoir and enough replayable mana usually immediately translates into a victory.
Here is my current list:
1x Inventors' Fair
1x Minamo, School at Waters Edge
2x Ancient Tomb
Library of Alexandria
2x Mishra's Workshop
1x Tolarian Academy
Mox Emerald, Jet, Ruby, Pearl, Sapphire
4x Mox Opal
2x Grim Monolith
4x Mental Misstep
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Voltaic Key
4x Paradoxical Outcome
4x Force of Will
1x Echoing Truth
2x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Mind's Desire
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Mishras Workshop
3x Tomrod's Crypt
1x Void Snare
1x Wurmcoil Engine
The deck is currently mono blue. I thought about splashing a color, black, but then i realized that i mostly just wanted to play fetchlands and didn't really want to put in the spells. Not playing fetchlands is however a problem, since the ability to shuffle would be great, especially since i am playing a Sensei's Top. Top gets considerably worse without shuffle effects, but the ability to repeatedly but it on the top to find a cantrip, and draw it again just to repeat still keeps it in the deck for now (to add storm). Not playing shuffle effects also significantly reduces card choices that would traditionally be considered or even a must play. Iam talking about more Sensei's Tops, Scroll Rack and Brainstorm. Yes, there is no brainstorm in this current build, crazy, right? That just feels kind of wrong. Maybe adding fetchlands without duals is the way to go, just for the shuffle effect.
Earlier builds had 4 Mishra's Workshop and no Ancient Tombs. I very much like the idea of playing Workshop in a non prison deck, powering out combo artifacts. Workshop does a great job of playing an Aetherflux Reservoir on turn 1 or dumping a hand full of artifact mana. However the biggest problem with Workshop is that it doesn't help at all casting the 4cmc spell Paradoxical Outcome, which should be the perfect followup after playing a Reservoir and a bunch of artifact mana. Since this Spell costs 4 and i want to be able to play it as reliably and early as possible i cut the workshops for Ancient Tombs. The life loss from the tombs seems counter intuitive in a deck trying to reach 50 life at first glance but it very rarely mattered. Most of the time, if you get to 50 life, just 1 more spell will bring to say 57 or something like that. The land helping to power out more spells renders the 2 lifeloss irrelevant most of the time. Ancient tombs however significantly reduced the turn 1 explosiveness of the deck, since now you cant just play Ancient tomb + 1 piece of artifact acceleration to cast a Reservoir. Also, since i was already playing Wurmcoil in the maindeck, i really liked the idea of beeing able to hardcast it as a secondary wincondition, which attacks from a totally different angle but still advances Plan A. Currently i am playing a 2/2 split in the maindeck and 1 more Workshop in the sideboard to bring in against prisony matchups.
I play the new legendary land, Inventors Fair, as a one of and i am quite happy with it. Its a uncounterable tutor for your win conditions, i could not be happier with it. Works great, not much opportunity cost, easy to just activate end of turn. The lifegain from it of course seems to play right into the strategy, but to be honest it doesnt matter. If you are going off, the 1-3 life you got from this land over the course of the game are mostly irrelevant.
I quite like the high count of basic islands. At first i thought i might want to play Seat of Synods, but they aren't really needed since Metalcraft is rarely a problem, i don't play any affinity cards and i really want to be able to cast my bounce spell on Null rods or stony silences. A deck full of easily ho sable artifacts needs some basic lands to be able to cast an answer.
I am not playing chrome mox or mox diamond because you don't really want to bounce them. I like to bounce reusable mana sources to not only come out on 0 or actually generate mana.
Mana Crypt and Grim Monolith work wonders in this deck, not only because you obviously can untap them with a voltaic key but also because they work great with bouncing and replaying them to generate mana. I use them pretty liberally and rarely regret it.
The difficulty with the manabase is to balance both fast sol ring like effects and enough permanents to abuse with paradoxical outcome and enough humble blue sources to be able to cast your spells in the first place. I also want a critical mass of bouncable, mana generating permanents but do not want to draw hands without action and just mana sources.
Plan A: Aetherflux Reservoir - i like this card a lot. It looks so innocent and cute, but actually has the potential to escalate out of nowhere.
Turn 1: Mishras Workshop, Mox Jet, Aetherflux Reservoir - pass. Turn 2: Grim Monolith (gain 1), mox Opal (2), Island, Preordain (3), Paradoxical Outcome (4) bounce Monolith, Mox, Mox draw 3. Just by replaying the you already had you now generated 28 life. Don't forget you just have just drawn 3 card, cast 1 more and the game is over.
Hell i have forced my own spells a few times just to get an additional 10 life or so.
The real powerhouse here is obviously Paradoxical Outcome, Aetherflux Reservoir is just a neat win condition that fits pretty nice if you ask me. The life gain over a few turns often buys a lot of time if you are not able to just win with it, which happens not rarely - this deck is not designed to go off on turn 1 or 2 as often as possible like Belcher, i would rather classify it as Combo - Control. The deck definitely has the potential to play a long game. I am currently playing no tutors, apart from the one Inventor's Fair and Tinker, but a full playset of the Reservoir. I am not sure about that yet, maybe 3 is the better number, it needs more testing. What happens when you draw multiples? Well, you don't really need multiples, but they are also not dead. If you manage to stick 2 of them on the board and then go off, the lifegain effect stacks and you will crack that 50 life mark very fast, however drawing 2 of those also is clunky and reduces the chances of you going off. This is one of the reasons i would love to play something like Brainstorm or Scroll Rack. Since this is your Plan A, just casting through countermagic or destruction is valid since you play 4.
Plan B: Vault/Key. This is a no-brainer in this deck. It wins the game on its own, they are artifacts, so easy to cast, while there are only 2 Tutors, there is also a lot of card draw which sometimes just finds you the pieces. It just fits.
Plan Wurmcoil Engine. This just is great against most creature based or prison decks. It hits hard, trades favorable with everything and even synergises with your main plan of gaining life. It is of course vulnerable to Swords to plowshares, but at least the lifegain is relevant. Why not BSC? Because having Workshops and Sol lands main deck makes Wurmcoil absolutely castable and not just a tinker target. There is a second one, as well as a third Workshop in the Sideboard for Eldrazi, Shops or the hatebears matchup where having lands that tap for 3 mana and win conditions that don't rely on casting a lot of spells are very nice. I also considered BSC just because of the pure powerlevel or Myr Battlesphere to go broader.
The rest of the Deck is mix of card draw/selection and control/protection elements. I do not believe that i have found a fine balance between those elements yet. I always feel that i like more cantrips AND more countermagic.
I tried different configuration of countermagic and cantrips already and currently i havent testet enough to be sure what works best. I am considering playing Probes, Merchant Scroll, Mystical Tutor, Thoughtcast. I would like to be able to play Brainstorm. If i have shuffle effects i would consider Scrollrack or a second Sensei's Top. I considered not playing much countermagic but instead go for Defense Grids and going for a more "all in combo" approach. However this leaves the deck incredibly vulnerable to Artifact hate, also i think this would play more like belcher, which is not what i was going for with this deck. I pondered about including Manadrains to power out the more expensive spells, however currently the count of blue mana sources is too low to support it.
There is one bounce spell maindeck because some decks run Null Rods or other hate (Kataki...) in the maindeck, and i like to at least have an out in the deck.
Notable might also be the Mind's Desire in the Sideboard. I had this maindeck for a while but i found myself not really wanting to hold all my spells to generate Storm in case i would draw it and if i dump my hand and then draw it, it feels terrible. Mind's Desire is one of my favorite Spells, maybe it will find a place main deck again. It is currently in the sideboard when i feel my opponent will out control me most of the time (Landstill for example) and having a storm spell is just harder for my opponent to handle.
As far as i tested, the deck works suprisingly good against Powered Eldrazi, Delver, Storm, Mentor, Pyromancer and Shops. The matchup against Oath and Turbotezz seems fine. Hatebears, JacoDrazi, and everything playing maindeck artifact hate is a hard matchup. I played one match against Standstill and got destroyed, it always felt like i had just 1 threat and maybe 1 way to defend it against my opponents hand full of counterspells and postboard hate.
As for today i did not play against Dredge, Belcher or Doomsday. Postboard the deck struggles the most against effects like Kataki or Energie Flux, Null Rods and Stoney Silences can be bounced when the time is right to go off, but these will kill your board. Im having problems finding suitable answers to those, especially when Kataki gets cast by a Cavern of Souls. Keep in Mind, the cards are not even released so testing is not easy at the moment.
I would love some feedback and ideas, thanks!
RE: What are some Common Vintage Tips & Tricks Everyone Should Know?
@volrathxp common tricks from the top of my head:
triggering things by casting pyroblast on a nonsensical target. For example, triggering mentor or dack by casting pyroblast on a land.
common sensei's top tricks like tapping top, holding priority and untapping it with key to tap it again to draw an extra card and put top in hand. Or the tapping top and in response bouncing it by any means (PO, repeal...)
If you want to draw with top, but don't want to have the top on your library as the first card you can activate tops order ability and in response put sensei's on the library to draw your card. Now when the order ability resolves, you can order sensei's anywhere in the top 3 you want.
there is value to be gained with triggers that have a scaling factor which is checked upon resolution. For example if you have a Aetherflux reservoir on the battlefield and you cast 2 instants in a row you can gain 3 life total if you let everything resolve individually, or you can cast the second instant while the first reservoir trigger is still in the stack to gain 4 life instead.
since probe is restricted there are a few sneaky bluffing possiblies available again. Letting a blind cabal therapy on you resolve even though you have a misstep in hand to counter it might be worth it in some situations. Most players will not name misstep with the therapy if it resolves and you save yourself a misstep and some life. (The cost of course is that your opponent could hit something else, sees your hand etc.)
An oldschool bluffing trick would also be selectively skipping to your second main before casting a spell to bluff having a mana drain in hand.
There are so many more...
Alright, now that Bargain is unrestricted lets talk about this in the context of a TPS like ritual based Storm shell. Yawgmoth's Bargain is one of the most powerful draw engines ever printed, if not the most powerful if it is already on the battlefield. A resolved bargain often times can draw about 14 cards at instant speed, it clearly is cabaple as a central engine that can power the whole deck.
How many Bargains would you actually want to play? After drawing a single bargain, every other one you get is a dead card. I don't think playing a full playset is a good idea, even if you want to build a deck that relies on resolving one every single game. It clearly needs testing but 2 bargains in a shell with a bunch of tutors or 3 in a shell that really wants to draw one naturally, seems plausible.
How much life is there to pay? After the restriction of Gitaxian Probe i cut my Cabal Therapies from my Deck and replaced them with Thoughtseizes, i liked the change then, but in the context of a Bargain powered deck, iam not sure that i want to play about 2 thoughtseizes, paying 4 life, before resolving a bargain and drawing 4 less cards. How much life would you want to guarantee a win after resolving bargain, and how can we build the deck in a way that we always maximize the power of bargain by minimizing our life loss. A second Tenrils in the main is not unheard of, and this might come in handy as lifegain to set up a big Bargain powered turn. What can we replace the thought seizes with? More Defence Grids maindeck or maybe even Collective Brutality? The lifegain of the Collective brutality might even come in handy, and discarding extra Bargains is rarely a bad idea. 2 Mana for a discard spell is a ton though.
6 Mana is a lot, how can you modify the deck that you can reliably resolve a bargain in almost every situation? Since i havee put a playset of Dark Petition in my deck i upped the count of Cabal Rituals from 1 to 2. Bargain might demand to up the count to 3 or even to the full playset. What other options are there?
What to cut? If you want to build a deck for wich the main path to victory is via a Yawgmoth's Bargain, what do we not need anymore? Cutting expensive tutors might very well be the most obvious option. Drawing 12 cards in a turn should find you what you need without having to play 6 tutors in your deck. You also wouldn't need many tutors to find the bargain, if you have, lets say, 3 in the deck. I think cutting Dark Petitions is a possibility.
Apart from having to cast Bargain, which will use a lot of resources from a turn, you also would probably want to win in the very same turn. This is definitely possible if you have enough life left, but everybody knows the frustration of drawing 10 cards and then fizzling because you just didn't find mana and already used your landdrop. Since this will be our main path to victory how can we make sure that fizzling is as rarely a occurrence as possible.
A list could maybe look like this:
Mana sources (31)1 Island1 Swamp5 Moxen1 Sol Ring
Disruption (10)4 Duress2 Unmask
Draw/Selection/Tutors (9)1 Ponder
Sideboard (15)1 Rebuild1 Massacre
This ofcourse is a very early draft and untested apart from gold fishing, what are your thoughts on this?
EDIT: i updated the decklist in this post.
RE: February 12, 2018 Banned and Restricted Announcement
I was really hoping for un restrictions though. Gitaxian Probe was wrongfully banned, they should correct that mistake.
RE: TMD feature pipeline - same direction, new channels, increased fervor
Im looking forward to the Podcast a lot. A weekly Vintage Podcast is luxary!
Interesting Decknames and Card-nicknames
Lets hear about the stories behind interesting, obscure and funny names for Decks and nicknames of cards.
Names featured here should not be incredibly obvious like "The Deck is called Grixis Pyromancer because it has Young Pyromancer in it and plays Grixis colors" or "This Deck is called Dredge, because it uses the Dredge mechanic".
The Decks do not all have to be Vintage Decks, however the Names should have been widely used in the relevant Format or MTG as a whole to the point that people at the time could genereally understand what Deck or Card was talked about when the Name was used. Stuff should not be incredibly obvies, but you can definetly talk about generally well-knows like "Bob" or "Tim" as long as the trivia is interesting.
For example: Why is this weird Doomsday-Reanimator-Storm Hybrid Legacy Deck called "Tin-fins"? Whats up with all the famous breakfast themed Decknames?
I would love to have an example Decklist be included or a Picture of the card talked about as well as some context in the posts, so everybody can get the references. I hope we get some cool Trivia out of it and a thread to consult everytime a newer player asks what the hell kind of weird (Deck-) name you are talking about.
So lets start with some classics:
Context: The iconic and powerful catch-all, board clear saw a ton of play in early magic and is still a staple in Old School and EDH due to its ability to provide such an effect to colors that generally have problems dealing with specific permanents or lack the ability to whipe a board.
The Name: The name is one of the most tounge twister like mtg card names out there and in many playgroups people tend to pronounce it kind of like they want. To ease the problem you might hear some players refer to the card just as "Larry's Disk". Thats easy to remember and the sound kind of fits, but there is more behind that common nickname than just the ability to unknot ones tongue.
In the mtg Lore the Disk is named after Nevinyrral, a powerful Lich on Dominaria and mentor to generations of Necromancers after his demise though his work "The Necromancer's Handbook". Nevinyrral used the Disk in question to blow himself and Urborg up.
Nevinyrral himself was named by WotC (Probably Garfield himself) after Larry Niven (just written backwards). The US- Author not only coined the Term "Mana" in the context of a magical resource supplied by lands, but also had a Warlock character in his books that build a mana-draining disc, which was the direct inspiration for the card. This makes "Larry's Disk" not only a much needed shortcut for the staggering card name, but also an interesting reference to inspiration from the earliest days of the game.
TLDR: "Larrys Disc" is named after Larry Niven.
The Four Horseman
These are the combo.
These are what you want to resolve.
These will keep you alive while you search.
These will help you find the combo.4 Ponder
These make your mana.3 Island1 Swamp
Context: The Four Horsemen is a Legacy Deck that people mostly know because it had some controversy around itself regarding slow play and shortcuts in tournament play. The Deck works by bringing Basalt Monolith and Mesmeric Orb together into play. This allows you to mill yourself indefinetly just by tapping and untapping the Monolith. While milling yourself you might just find your Emrakul and shuffle your GY back into your Deck using its trigger. You basically repeat milling yourself and shuffling your library back into your Deck until your find a very specific combination of cards making up your gamestate before the Emrakul crashes the party again: Have 3 Narcomoebas in play and Blasting Station, Sharuum as well as a Dread Return in your Graveyard. Now just cast Dread Return targeting the Sharuum, which in turn will bring the Blasting station into play. As soon as it is in play, keep going with the selfmill and have the Narcomoebas fill the two jobs of beeing a sac target and an untap trigger for the blasting station, shuffling them back into your library ad infinitum allowing you to deal an infinite amount of damage to your opponent. Not convoluted at all.
The problem the deck has is that the very specific combination of hitting 3 Narcomoebas, Sharuum, Blasting Station and Dread Return before Emrakul is not determanistic which makes the pilot unable to specifically name a number of times they want to repeat the demonstated self-milling loop.
In September 2012 at the SCG Legacy Open LA, the head judge was brought over to make a call on a feature match involving Jeff Liu on the infamous Deck. The judge, Josh Stansfield, had this to say about the game: "By performing the same loop of actions without changing the game, he was violating the shortcut policy outlined in the Magic Tournament Rules and the Slow Play policy in the Infraction Procedure Guide." (http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_four_horsemen_with_j.html)
The Name: This name is one of the most confusing and many theories about what cards it specifically references can be found online, mostly because the Deck changed quite a lot from its original form. I heard people say the 4 Horsemen where the Narcomoebas, others say its the 4 pieces needed to find once the infinite mill is established, this comes the closest to the original meaning of the name. I found the earliest mention of this deck in a mtgsalvation thread called "[deck] The Four Horsemen" , where a US User called Finn postet a List and explanation for his Deck idea originally in March of 2011. (https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/181684-deck-the-four-horsemen) The Thread now has over 13 Pages of posts reaching into 2017 with updates and a loyal playerbase constantly tinkering on the Deck. In his post Finn gave a clue about the Deckname in the following sentece explaining the decks win condition " If you milled 3 Narcos, a "Horseman" and a Dread Return before he does, great - Dread Return a fatties." Alone this sentence doesnt seem to make a lot of sense when you look at the post, where nowhere else (but the Title) Horsemen are mentioned, and reanimating fatties doesnt really seem to be the goal of the Deck. The Answer comes in reading the thread further and discovering that the original post was last edited in November 2011, and with it the Decklist changed. In the replies to the thread posted before the edits to the orignal post where made, you can find peoples own suggestions to alter the original decklist, which included exactly 4 fatties as reanimation targets for the Dread returns ushering in the end of the game if found. The Deck has gone through a lot of interations of reanimation targets called "Horsemen" of choice for specific metagame answers, safer comboing, resilience and speed after finally settling on cutting the fattie win condition as a whole and replacing them with the win condition described above. The name stuck, and now we have this wonderfully infamous combo Deck with a very confusing Name.
TLDR: 4 Horsemen refers to 4 specific reanimation targets in a proto version of the Deck.
Edit: fixed typos and grammar mistakes, added TLDRs
RE: [Premium Book] Understanding Gush: Strategy & Tactics (2016)
@Smmenen ive asked you on twitter before: is the book available as a non digital print? If so, can it be shipped to europe?
Quicken in Doomsday.
Hello, first of all i have to make clear that, even though i played my fair share of games with Doomsday lists, iam not an expert at this strategy. Iam primerely a Storm player, but Doomsday has always been a deck i liked to proxy from now and then and play a few games and i just love the near endless possibilities and the feeling that most of the time there is a win possible, you just have to figure out the puzzle.
My question to the experts here is: Why is Quicken not seeing any play in Doomsday lists?
A end of turn Quicken, ritual, Doomsday seems incredibly powerful to me. This has multiple uses such as:
- One of the biggest problems i encountered with Doomsday is when you cast Doomsday and then have to pass the turn. This gives the opponent am amount of room and time for reaction, iam not comftable with at all. He can spent his whole turn sculpting a hand full of answers, he could just kill you if he has a beater on board since you paid half your life, or he could fire off a draw 7. Of course you dont want to just play Doomsday and pass without any interaction in hand to at least fight over those possibilities, but wouldnt it be better to avoid those situations most of the time?
- You get to untap all your mana for the turn you want to go for the win. This allows you to build a pile with more protection since you might be able to free up the spot a lotus for example takes a lot of the time.
- It draws you into the pile as your turn-draw. This allows for safe feeling of casting Doomsday and then drawing into it in the same turn (for example with gush) wihtout having to spend a draw spell.
Quicken also is not a dead card in your hand if you cant use it for a Doomsday. Its still at least a cantrip (even though iam aware a 1mana draw 1 is terrible, but at least it isnt nothing in a dire situation) Its blue so it still pitches to FoW and Misdirection and its cheap.
Still you want to get as many uses out of Quicken as possible and use it to its full potential. Maybe the card would allow for more sorceries in the deck (DP? ive been thinking about a 2/2 split betweed DP and Doomsday since drawing multiple Doomsdays feels terrible a lot of the time, but thats for another discussion...i might be very wrong on that one)
I still think the safest and most direct way is to cast Doomsday and then Gush right into the pile, however Quicken might transform the other unpleasant option of passing into something closer to the gush route.
Since casting a Quicken just as a cantrip is pretty bad i assume that you want to keep the count as low as 1 or 2 copies in the deck.
Iam fully aware that im probably not the first one to think about that and that there is probably a good reason for why this isnt seeing any play - please enlighten me. But who knows, maybe it plays out fine (i havent tested with it a lot)
RE: Thoughts on restrictions
I was just rambling in my earlier post on here, so here are some more ordered thoughts on the matter.
Following is my current opinion (which can always be changed by good arguments or experiences):
Bad hate card design (Roadblock) - mostly contain phrases like "(players, opponents, you, spells etc...) can't". Those cards shut of strategies on their own without any wiggle room and demand specific answers before they hated player can proceed with his game plan. I think this is lazy and bad game design. Also abilities like "cant be countered, hexproof, shorud, unblockable etc. live here. Also my personal most hated mechanic: Split second. it literally says: Your opponent cant react to this, cant interact with you, this just happens.
Examples: Ethersworn Canonist, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Rest in Piece or (in my opinion one of the biggest mistakes ever printed) Cavern of Souls, etc...
Better hate card design (Punisher) - mostly contain phrases like "If (player, opponent....) does x, then you may y" x is the game action you like to punish and y is a positive effect that you get out of it. If well designed those cards punish a strategy harsh, but still keep some wiggling room where the opposing player may find a way to play around or force through the effect. Those cards don't stop a strategy but give you a massive advantage if your opponent still tries to pursue it.
Examples: Thorn of Amethyst (other taxing effects), Consecrated Sphinx, Standstill, Scab-Clan Berserker, Leovold, Emissary of Trest's second ability, (i believe the original skull clamp design was meant to be punishing removal on the equipped creature. A last minute change on the card made it to be a active card drawing engine in the right deck), etc...
I believe designing a good punisher card is extremely difficult. Make the punishing to strong and it might just be a Roadblock in disguise, make it too weak and it wont have an effect at all. Make it slightly too strong and try to balance it by just raising its mana cost and you have a card like Consecrated sphinx. So expensive and with such a powerful effect its not a real "hate" card but a finisher.
My favorite "hate" card design: Counter spells, removal spells, discard... Don't laugh, yeah i put those cards in the same category. These are still cards that are not designed to advance your own game plan, but to stop your opponent from advancing his! I love this category. Its very interactive, it doesn't hose entire strategies but still can stop them. They demand the most skill how and when to use them, are very interactive and are still very powerful.
Trap cards like Mindbreak- or Ravenous trap live somewhere between category 2 and 3. I like them, they can be interacted with like category 3, but have very powerful effects that punish an opponent for playing a particular strategy more than just normal category 3 cards.
As you read this you may observe some problems. I personally would love for mtg to not have any of the Roadblock card, to have very few punishers and to have most of the last category. But sadly this wont work, i am not trying to fool myself. Currently there are some strategies that would be way too strong without the existing roadblocks. Dredge is probably the most obvious example here. Why? Because this deck is designed to only minimally care about the third category and is equipped to handle most of it with easy. Punisher cards would be cool here (like "whenever a card is put into an opponent's graveyard from anywhere that player loses 1 life" or "whenever a spell is cast from a graveyard you may discard a card, if you do counter that spell" stuff like that) But those probably wouldn't see play since we have enough Roadblock cards, which is sad.
Why do i dislike dedicated hate bear decks so much? The whole deck is a pile of mostly category 1 and 2 cards. It discourages interaction and strafes to stop the opponent from playing at all. It is probably the most boring way to play magic.
You might say "but aren't decks like Storm also trying to not have your opponent play magic by winning as fast and as non interactive as possible?" to which i answer: Yes, combo decks like this try to do their thing as fast as possible, and of course are happy if the opponent doesn't interact. However this wont happen a lot, and you are trying to force through your game plan mostly by category 3 "hate". Sometimes category 2 (f.e. Defense Grid) or even category 1 (f.e. Xantid Swarm) are used, but they make for the more boring games in my opinion.
Since a lot of Roadblock cards already exist, i only can hope that Wizards wont design any more of those. Yes, punisher cards are very hard to design and get right, but if you hit the nail on the head, they can be pretty cool cards. I would love for wizards to, if they want to design more hate cards, to put in the extra work.
Edit: corrected some typing or phrasing errors. Added some abilities to category 1.
RE: Thoughts on restrictions
There seems to be the misconception in this thread that a lot of people are "whining" about hate bears and other hate cards, just want to play their solitaire combo deck and under interrupted as possible, think that hate bears decks are actually at a oppressive power level or are unable to find answers/don't want to include answers for hate bear decks in their decks.
While there might be a few people that actually have an opinion consisting of a combination of those, i think most here that argue against the printing of more hate bear like cards would like to bring across their concern about a design philosophy especially how interaction and meaningful decisions (a term i quite like) are damped maybe to harshly by continuous hate effects, to the point that it is bringing down the fun (I am aware that one players idea of fun is obviously not always shared by another player) of playing a game of magic in a format that often prides itself with having a very high amount of decisions to be made in a single turn or game compared to other formats.
Please be reasonable, don't hang yourself up on semantics or purposefully "misunderstand" a post because it wasn't articulated in a perfect way, even though the meaning behind it is clearly visible. Try to look at the discussion objectively (i know it isn't entirely possible if you are invested in an opinion).
It is not about "winning" or having the last word. It is about having a useful discussion.
Try not to over analyse a statements
Try not to construct straw man arguments
For me personally it helps striking up short meta discussion about the arguments itself and if those are useful to lead the discussion back on topic. Try it out.
Some of the answers and nitpicks are just silly and are actively working against having a useful discussion on the topic.
I first didn't want to include an example in here but this one is just so funny to me, sorry Steve.
Just like when he said he was only " anti-continuous effect"?
By that logic, should I have not pointed out "Gauntlet of Might"? Or was I reading his idea too narrowly?
(i know i left out some context in this quote but i didn't want it to be too long, you can read the context in the posts above)
Come on, did you really think he was talking about continuous effects in general and not under the hood of, you know hate cards? The very topic we are talking about here. Don't be silly, nobody believes that you really thought that. Nonsense like this is a prime example of active derailing that doesn't move a healthy discussion along.
To all: Please just be reasonable!
RE: Vintage @Youtube & @Twitch
Cardtitan on youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPCNEKq4EPN6tcl6zopb1ww/videos
Draw3 on youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPceOrWZACXD9N7wxQzxoRQ
So many Insane Plays Podcast http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-59-eternal-weekend-2016-wrap-up/
Tusk Talk Podcast http://www.eternalcentral.com/tusk-talk-podcast-episode-12-the-taxmen-and-eternal-weekend-2016/
Serious Vintage Podcast: