Vintage Strategy Spoiler Subforum

Hi ya'll!

Like a number of folks here, I'm a bit tired of seeing the spoiler threads for every card under the sun. Thought I'd make a thread to discuss / propose some solutions.

My favorite option is thus:

Spoiler threads have their own dedicated subforum, and do not appear in Unread.

For me, the spoiler threads are ruining the unread feature. Marking everything in Vintage Strategy as read isn't necessarily difficult, but I'd rather not miss legitimate content because of noise. Obviously it's nice to see discussion on the new trike, but we're going to get 150+ new cards constantly, and making a new thread for every one is silly. At the same time, I understand that there are folks who find discussing every card to be valuable here, given the explicit Vintage context.

Thoughts?

mdkubiak

The first question I would pose to everybody is what do you want out of the vintage strategy forum? How do you incision it? What do you like and don't like?

My first inclination is ther categories are very broad, so everything gets jumbled together. While I'm okay with how things are, as I don't feel it's gotten too messy. However, I do understand how some people feel differently.

I see a need for proven deck and card discussion and spoiler season discussion. I feel these cater to different things. However, I do feel there is certainly intersection.

There is also things I would classify as: new deck ideas, new deck testing results, meta discussions, b/r list thoughts, etc.

I don't have a perfect idea, but right off the top of my head, I say the main thread should be to discuss proven decks, card choices, meta, that kind of thing. There could be a subcategory for spoiler discussion, one for b/r discussion, one for deck testing. Maybe that's too much?

joshuabrooks

I think a solution could be a feature I mentioned in the very beginning, which would be the ability to "unfollow" or "unsubscribe" from individual threads.

I'd love to be able to block tournaments from (random state) appearing , or a deck discussion I couldn't care less about from appearing in my Unread.

If there was a simple icon you could click that would prevent that thread from popping up in your unread again, I think it would solve a ton of problems (though might create a little bit of a ghosttown effect for some people).

A simpler solution might just be a forum for casual card discussion/spoilers that doesn't pop up in Unread. People should be able to converse about cards and have a good time; the friction seems to be the people that don't want to be subjected to the updates of that crowd.

That said, I am not a programmer, so this might be a Herculean task. I think the more content the better on TMD, as the converse is a bad thing, but people should be able to opt out of some of it.

@joshuabrooks said in Vintage Strategy Spoiler Subforum:

I think a solution could be a feature I mentioned in the very beginning, which would be the ability to "unfollow" or "unsubscribe" from individual threads.

I'd love to be able to block tournaments from (random state) appearing , or a deck discussion I couldn't care less about from appearing in my Unread.

If there was a simple icon you could click that would prevent that thread from popping up in your unread again, I think it would solve a ton of problems (though might create a little bit of a ghosttown effect for some people).

A simpler solution might just be a forum for casual card discussion/spoilers that doesn't pop up in Unread. People should be able to converse about cards and have a good time; the friction seems to be the people that don't want to be subjected to the updates of that crowd.

That said, I am not a programmer, so this might be a Herculean task. I think the more content the better on TMD, as the converse is a bad thing, but people should be able to opt out of some of it.

You can ignore individual threads. Click on the "Not Watching" button below and select "Ignore". You can also ignore entire categories.

I favor expanding this existing functionality by creating more detailed categories, allowing users more control over their TMD experience.

joshuabrooks

@ChubbyRain said in Vintage Strategy Spoiler Subforum:

@joshuabrooks said in Vintage Strategy Spoiler Subforum:

I think a solution could be a feature I mentioned in the very beginning, which would be the ability to "unfollow" or "unsubscribe" from individual threads.

I'd love to be able to block tournaments from (random state) appearing , or a deck discussion I couldn't care less about from appearing in my Unread.

If there was a simple icon you could click that would prevent that thread from popping up in your unread again, I think it would solve a ton of problems (though might create a little bit of a ghosttown effect for some people).

A simpler solution might just be a forum for casual card discussion/spoilers that doesn't pop up in Unread. People should be able to converse about cards and have a good time; the friction seems to be the people that don't want to be subjected to the updates of that crowd.

That said, I am not a programmer, so this might be a Herculean task. I think the more content the better on TMD, as the converse is a bad thing, but people should be able to opt out of some of it.

You can ignore individual threads. Click on the "Not Watching" button below and select "Ignore". You can also ignore entire categories.

I favor expanding this existing functionality by creating more detailed categories, allowing users more control over their TMD experience.

Gotcha, I was proposing something a little more easy (and intuitive). Like maybe a red "x" next to each thread on the Unread page. Might lower some of the stress people seem to feel when getting overwhelmed with spoiler updates.

And I would totally support more delineation of topics. Maybe a "tier 1 spoiler discussion" for cards people are willing to defend and a "casual spoiler discussion" for unproven theories and casual chatter.

That said, I'm guessing I am not the only one that doesn't fully customize their TMD experience, so I still would like a quick/easy front page way to defeat threads.

vaughnbros

@Lesbimagical Welcome to spoiler season the Drain!

thecravenone

@Lesbimagical said in Vintage Strategy Spoiler Subforum:

My favorite option is thus:

Spoiler threads have their own dedicated subforum, and do not appear in Unread.

For me, the spoiler threads are ruining the unread feature.

I check this forum at least once, usually twice per day. My primary use of the forum is through the unread tab. Removing things from unread effectively black holes them for me.

Perhaps the reason I don't find that the unread feature is ruined by... well pretty much anything... is because I check with enough frequency that there are rarely more than a dozen newly-updated threads.

Because complaints about this have been posted in several threads, I'll summarize the suggestions I've seen below as well as my pros/cons for these suggestions. I apologize that I'm a negative person and primarily see cons:

Dedicated Subforum
Pros:

Easily located for future reference
Does not clog the more general strategy discussion forum

Cons:

Players may avoid the subforum and miss out on something they could want to contribute to
Vague restrictions pt 1 - I have come up with a a wholy new deck (eg when Pyromancer or Mentor were printed). Do I post in the spoiler subforum where new cards go or in the strategy forum where deck discussion goes?
Vague restrictions pt 2 - At what point does a discussion of a new card move from the spoiler subforum to the strategy forum? Should cards that continue to be discussed be moved? Should a new thread a card that is very new but now physically available go to spoilers or strategy?
Vague restrictions pt 2.5 - I want to read what people thought about $card back in the day. Do I check the spoiler forum or the strategy forum or both?

Do not have threads appear in unread
Pros:

Unread has fewer items in it

Cons:

Unread becomes is no longer actually Unread.

Single thread for all spoilers
Pros:

Reduced clutter in the forum

Cons:

Increased clutter in the thread itself. I mentioned this in another thread: I do not participate, or even read, the spoiler thread on The Source because there are so many overlapping discussions that I can barely understand what's happening.

"Archive" spoilers for cards that don't perform
Pros:

Useful strategy discussion remains in the strategy subforum

Cons:

Increased workload on moderation team
Vague restrictions - At what point is a card considered to have failed and need to move? At what point does it move back?
I want to read what people thought about $card back in the day. Do I check the failed spoiler forum or the strategy forum or both?

Restrictions on what is required to create a new spoiler thread (This is my preferred solution)
Pros:

Increased quality of posts

Cons:

Increased workload required to submit a thread. Some spoilers worth discussion might not be discussed.
There will certainly be disagreement on what the restrictions should be and whether threads have met those restrictions.

thecravenone

Part 2: My Proposal

@thecravenone said in Vintage Strategy Spoiler Subforum:

Restrictions on what is required to create a new spoiler thread (This is my preferred solution)
Pros:

Increased quality of posts

Cons:

Increased workload required to submit a thread. Some spoilers worth discussion might not be discussed.

There will certainly be disagreement on what the restrictions should be and whether threads have met those restrictions.

First, I propose that all spoiler threads contain at minimum

An image of the card (English printing may not be available at time of spoiling)
Full English rules text of the card
Something to kickoff discussion (further spelled out below)
(In the thread itself) No discussion unrelated to the card itself. As an example, In the initial post for Fatal Push, nedleeds points out that Mental Misstep may be an issue for decks playing Fatal Push. By my count, 10 of 27 responses are an argument over Mental Misstep. Misstep is built into the format. There is no need to discuss the strategy of playing one drops in Vintage aside from reminding people that it is a weakness of the card compared to some of the cards it might replace. By that measure, every spoiler thread could mention that, if your opponent has 9 taxing effects, the card costs a lot and therefore isn't very good.

As an example of what I think a bad thread looks like, with apologies to OP, this spoiler thread opens with a scan of the card and, "I have no words." No useful discussion has been initiated other than establishing that this thread is the place where this card shall be discussed.

I'm sure I'll miss some but I think spoilers fall into the following categories and here's my proposed rules. I've listed every spoiler currently on the front page of the strategy forum to ensure I've at least come up with enough categories to cover the current set and avoid making myself look like a jackass.

This card potentially creates a new deck The rarest and best kind of spoiler. Recent examples include the entire Eldrazi deck, Monastery Mentor, and Young Pyromancer
Examples:

Braal, Chief of Compliance

Rules:

Provide a decklist
Describe why this card is important in this decklist
Why is this deck better than existing choices of a similar archetype? (EG, why should I play Vehicles when I can play like thirty-seven spheres or whatever)
What are potential weaknesses of this deck specific to the new card (EG, don't tell me that Blue is bad. Tell me that Braal gets hit by every removal spell in the format)

This card splits slots or replaces an existing card
Examples:

Walking Balista vs Triskelion and Hangarback Walker
Industrial Tower

Rules:

List the cards that this replaces
For each card that it replaces, why should I play the new card over the old card
What new weaknesses are created by playing the new card over the old card

This card is a role player that easily slots into existing decks
Examples:

Fatal Push

Rules:

Why is this card a role player?
Why does it easily slot into existing decks?
What decks are likely to play this card?
What cards are likely to be cut to make room for this card?
For each card cut, explain why the new card is better.
What weaknesses are added due to the change?

This card is interesting but I'm not sure what to do with it // This card is great but probably not great enough I suspect this is really what people are annoyed by. Additionally, some of these cards may be good enough to go in an above described thread but their opening discussion does not.
Examples:

Rules:
Shit, I don't know. Maybe a subforum for "Developmental" for both decks and spoilers until the discussion has reached a point that the card has advanced to one of the above categories.

I agree with essentially all of your listed pros and cons, but find that the "shit I don't know" is essentially the crux of the problem - every single card does not need its own thread. You pointed out some excellent examples of cards that deserve their own threads, or at least merit discussion. It's exactly the "well maaaaaaybe this is possibly playable" cards that are the problem, i think. And people seem to have issue discerning. I'd be happy to see a thread for every card that fit in one of the categories you listed, and with as much detail as noted.

I'd also note that subforums, and the ability to unsubscribe from them, seems to solve everyone's issues. New card discussion goes in one, and gets moved when a card proves its relevance - in which point it should be in an archetype thread, or legitimate strategy questions could be raised in the main forum.

I mean there is a thread about Mechanized Production. C'mon.

mdkubiak

The last thing I want to see is a general 'Aether Revolt' spoiler thread. I'm not saying anyone is particularly clamoring for that, but I will not end up reading those. Too much information about cards being thrown around and is quite hard to follow.

I'm honestly okay with where things are right now, but it would be nice if there was a bit more categorization. It would make what I'm looking for a little easier. Maybe one day I'd be like, hey, I'd like to look at various deck discussions that are considered tier 1 or 2 decks, but I have to go through so much other stuff to get it. A little categorization would go along way. It may end up costing people seeing a thread they would have otherwise liked to read, but I think that is the only negative I really see.

However, don't go crazy with the amount of sub categories either. I don't want to see a diagram just to explain how to navigate the Mana Drain.

vaughnbros

@mdkubiak That would be far better than going through this every single time a new set gets spoiled. 90% of these cards won't ever even make a top 8. You don't even see single card threads like this on actually played fringe cards...

Walking Ballista is probably the only card worthy of its own thread, and even then not really because you just sub out your Triskelions for it.

mdkubiak

@vaughnbros I will have to respectfully disagree (if I'm understanding you correctly). While I understand you don't like the spoiler threads (correct me if I'm wrong), I do, however, enjoy reading those threads from time to time. While I don't read them all, having them all in a single thread will basically stop me from reading it. There would just be too much information in it and would be rather annoying to find anything I want to read about.

If Brassy did this and if I want to read about, say, Walking Ballista, I will have to search for it in that thread of potentially dozens of cards. That's way more work then it is for people to skip over all the spoiler threads they don't want to read. I don't think this is a viable solution.

vaughnbros

@mdkubiak Sorry, but White Platinum Angel, worse than thoughtcast, and a bunch of these other cards will never see the light of day. This happens everytime a set is spoiled and maybe like 2 blatantly good cards actually become something.

enderfall

Most normal spoiler seasons don't have nearly as many fringe cards as we get on the plane of Kaladesh. Due to the fact that Mishra's Workshop exists, nearly every artifact needs to be discussed to some degree. Look at Slash Panther. That card was straight up garbage in every single format except Vintage because it did 2 things: it was super cheap to play off of Workshop and it was good at killing Jace which was as prevalent at the time as Mentor is these days. In normal seasons where artifacts aren't the vast majority of the cards being released, there will be far fewer threads created.

mdkubiak

@vaughnbros I don't disagree on that, honestly. I certainly understand that some of these cards that are discussed will never see serious vintage usage. Certainly not disputing that. All I'm saying is I don't want to see a single thread devoted to all cards in a set. I think that will severely limit the discussions and will make it hard to discuss and/or find information on a card. I believe that is more important then sifting through bad threads.