In the paper league that I run we don't allow sharpie on the back of a magic card because it can be difficult to tell what it is from a distance. If a proxy does not have all information, even if it is a well known card, it isn't allowed.

Basically, we encourage ye olde "print off and put in front of a basic land" or even "take a blank card and draw your own awesome stick man with all relevant text" proxies because it's vintage.

If you can be assed to do more that write the name of a card on the back with a sharpie, you shouldn't get to play vintage.

@Winterstar said:

Basically, we encourage ye olde "print off and put in front of a basic land" or even "take a blank card and draw your own awesome stick man with all relevant text" proxies because it's vintage.

This is also what we do. I think print in front of basic is the option that generally plays the best*. But I’d like to mention the proxy rule GameForce in Eindhoven used: Sharpie on a basic when it’s in your deck, and print when it’s in play; similar to how checklist cards work.

*) At my last paper event we had a guy wth a 100% proxy deck who put prints in front of some kind of brightly colored anime cards, with a ½” border of the card showing. It was horrible, and extra horrible that he won because Dredge.

@Islandswamp If you are not playing with black sleeves, in all likelihood they are not 100% opaque. In that case the back of the delvers are distinguishable and they are marked. At Champs in 2014 when delver was a common deck many people received game losses for having marked cards because of this. (Snarky comments omitted.)

Backwards proxies weren't allowed at the NYSE.

@diophan said:

@Islandswamp If you are not playing with black sleeves, in all likelihood they are not 100% opaque. In that case the back of the delvers are distinguishable and they are marked. At Champs in 2014 when delver was a common deck many people received game losses for having marked cards because of this. (Snarky comments omitted.)

Oh I see. I almost always use black sleeves so I guess it's never come up for me then. I prefer to have all my stuff match.

Yeah I don't believe it's inherently illegal to not use checklist cards ... But you have to be real careful about your sleeves if you don't

I just LOL'd at myself for literally never considering that the checklist cards were to prevent inadvertent "marking" of cards. I always thought they were for the convenience of not having to unsleeve, re-sleeve and then remember to do it all again when the game ended.

In general I hate playing with and against backwards cards that just have names sharpied onto them just because that gets real confusing really quick if you have a bunch of them that are all different cards.

I "TO" our local proxy tournaments. Our current rule is essentially don't make us need to create rules.

[Store name] does not have any rules regarding what a proxy or play-test must look like. Please ensure that your cards are sufficiently clear so that your opponent can easily discern what card you are playing. If bad cards become a problem, we will institute rules regarding their formatting. We recommend using the ATX Magic’s Playtest Card Rules to create your proxy/play-test cards.

The majority of our players proxy by printing out a copy of the card and sticking it in the sleeve with another card for structure.

The worst proxy we've had is probably mine - I forgot to print the back side of Jace VP, so when he flips, I put my phone, with a picture of the card, on top of the physical card.

Since I never participated in a proxy tournament I don't have much experience with it. I noticed that people here play with basic lands cards with names/text of the cards while everything else is blacked out. Some simply print the image and put it into a sleeve. But it seems that the latter is actually forbidden in many places unless you proxy the whole deck this way.

I was also wondering if some people use fake cards for this. ATX Magic obviously forbids those and I like that (and it should be like that in my opinion) but how does it look like at other places? Are there people who bought the fake cards in order to be able to use them at proxy tournaments? Do you mark the cards somehow to show that those are proxies?

(yeah, with proxy I meant 'playtest card')

Again, there are no formal guidelines so it ALWAYS varies by TO. I know a few TO's who don't allow the fake/counterfeit cards ... not because of any concern of cheating, but to discourage people from funding counterfeiters.

Typically speaking, tournaments that allow a lot of proxies (especially 100% proxy events) tend to be more casual, more player run, and with mostly players who know each other and look out for each other - cheating is less of a concern here than readability. Of course, the only way to know for sure is to ask the TO.

I do know that when the SCG P9 events had an official set of proxy rules, a lot of TOs would just say "We're using the same rules as SCG" to keep things simple, which made a sort of de facto standards, even if there were no de jure standards. As far as I know, this practice doesn't really exist anymore.

In the majority of events I've played, proxies that have been printed out and inserted in front of an actual Magic card are frowned upon, as your proxies are now thicker than the rest of your deck. Still probably less noticeable than, say, an FTV foil, but when we're talking about the thickness of 10-15 of probably the most powerful cards in your deck being different than your basic lands and Preordains, I err on the side of caution.

Public Service Announcements:

The proper terms in this conversation are:

(1) Proxy - An official replacement for a card damaged during a tournament.
(2) Playtest Card - An unofficial card being used in place of a real one that would not pass as real even under the most casual of inspections.
(3) Counterfeit - An unofficial card being used in place of a real one that can pass as real under a casual inspection in some relevant circumstance.

Cite: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/proxies-policy-and-communication-2016-01-14

A playtest card is most commonly a basic land with the name of a different card written on it with a marker. Playtest cards aren't trying to be reproductions of real Magic cards; they don't have official art and they wouldn't pass even as the real thing under the most cursory glance. Fans use playtest cards to test out new deck ideas before building out a deck for real and bringing it to a sanctioned tournament. And that's perfectly fine with us. Wizards of the Coast has no desire to police playtest cards made for personal, non-commercial use, even if that usage takes place in a store.

@thecravenone "Don't be a dick.""

@diophan said in Vintage Proxy Guidelines:

@Islandswamp If you are not playing with black sleeves, in all likelihood they are not 100% opaque. In that case the back of the delvers are distinguishable and they are marked. At Champs in 2014 when delver was a common deck many people received game losses for having marked cards because of this. (Snarky comments omitted.)

There are a number of other sleeves that are not black that are completely opaque that I've seen and/or used before. It just depends on the brand, thickness, and texture. I've seen sparkly blue, purple, brand sleeves, etc that aren't black, but are completely opaque.

Regarding the original question, to my knowledge Zherbus was the first person to permit "proxy" Vintage tournaments, and the guidelines weren't very strict. The only rule was, at first, just 5 proxies.

In Columbus Meandeck Opens, we opened it up to unlimited proxies, but with common sense rules that, 1) if you used print outs, that all of your deck had to be proxied in the same manner so as not to have some cards of different thickness), and 2) to have all of the key text on cards.

In the early days of the SCG event, when they first started permitting proxies, there weren't specific rules (so text on magic card backs were permitted), but later Matt V issued more specific guidelines.

Although I've always preferred black sharpie on a magic BACK (not front) because I think it is much easier to read than trying to read sharpie on the front of a card (where other text and chiaroscuro make it harder to read), SCG eventually required all proxies on basic lands (and on the front), and I think they did so for, as others said, readability at a distance.

Because it was simply easier, I think most groups just would link to the SCG rules, and ask their player base to follow that format, so the SCG rules became a default among groups that permitted proxies. But not because it was better - just because it was codified from a reputable source.

That said, I TO'd a ton of tournaments in the mid-oughts, and don't recall anyone ever raising the concern that sharpie on the back of a card is a problem - but that may be because all of the sleeves I remember from that period (roughly 2003-2007) were virtually all completely opaque on the back. The question about curvature I don't think matters because most pack fresh cards aren't curved (which are the most likely proxy targets), and the sleeves of proxied cards and the proxied cards themselves will acquire the same curvature of the rest of the deck, to the extent that this is even an issue (and I've never heard it raised before now).

The only time I've ever heard anyone complain about curvature or warping is for foil cards (Rich Shay used to complain about this alot) or cards that have been riffle-shuffled to hell. About ten years ago I sold off nearly all of my foils because I began to be persuaded that they were more likely to be warped than regular cards. That's the only time I've ever heard anyone complain about curvature.

Of course, subsequent to that period, Magic printed both double sided cards and textless cards, so alot of the debates about card backs and the text requirement looks silly in retrospect. The simple rule of thumb should be that if a proxy is in any way identifiable from behind that the card is "marked." YMMV

@Smmenen said in Vintage Proxy Guidelines:

Regarding the original question, to my knowledge Zherbus was the first person to permit "proxy" Vintage tournaments, and the guidelines weren't very strict. The only rule was, at first, just 5 proxies.

Actually, it was 'proxy any of the power 10'. I don't think this ever came up in the interview we did a few years back, but where I was from had a lot of Type 1.5 players. Most players who had been around had access to dual lands (they were like $15 for good ones at the time in 2001/2002), revised restricted cards, and newer stuff. Even Mishra's Workshop was like $20 at the time.

The part that did come up in the interview, which you can find in Smmenen's series, was that at the time Vintage games in general were difficult to find, nevermind any sort of tournament. The complaint was always about 'well you have power, and I don't so I will lose'. It was a valid complaint, but I wanted to show people that Vintage was deeper than the perceived turn 1 kills.

Last anecdote: I remember the event having Redman and Cooberp coming up from NG:NY, bringing Zoo and Enchantress respectfully. An Academy deck was at the top tables, a few Mono-Blue FoF decks, a JPMeyer Stacker 2 deck, a bunch of homebrews, and me with Keeper.

Wow @Zherbus is alive! Good to see you!

Sure am. Haven't spoken to most of you since I wrote the CS primer on the deck Shay and I worked on 2.5 years ago. Some of you not for much longer (I think we talked on the phone last in 2011 Soly) I'm alive!

Also to add, the Hadley and Waterbury tournaments that followed mine started playing with different rules. 5 of anything proxies, 10 of anything proxies, x number of free proxies - pay extra entry for more proxies, and who can forget the 'we're going to make a batch of less than authentic power cards to beef up the circulation, give them out as prizes, and have them not count towards the proxy limit' proxies. Somewhere in a box, I still have a Black Lotus and an Mox Emerald from those ill-fated events.

Another thing to remember was the guidelines that eventually took shape. Specifically, at the first Hadley tournament in the top 8, a dude played a land with a tiny strip of paper on it that was a Mox. There was a glare on the sleeve from the lights, I never saw that this was Mox-Monkey food, and almost lost a game because of it. That's when common sense rules started to apply. You had to make it clear what card it was, you had to include card text, and it couldn't be slips of paper (full sized or otherwise) because you could feel that thickness difference.

One more thing that makes "proxy" events even harder is Wizards changed/updated/clarified their policy on what a "proxy" is.

The definitions now are (short hand):

Proxy: Card given out by TO to replace a card damaged or unplayable in the middle of an event.

Counterfeit: Any reproduction of WotC IP (including printed out slips of paper for "old term proxy")

Playtest: A real magic card with writing on it to signify it is a different card.

As is, a WPN Store can not hold an event that allows "counterfeit" cards. We can only hold events that allow playtest cards. This essentially killed the eternal events at my store. because people were comfortable looking at a card and saying "yep, that's a Mox Ruby" instead of trying to decipher scribble on a card.

@Zherbus said in Vintage Proxy Guidelines:

Sure am. Haven't spoken to most of you since I wrote the CS primer on the deck Shay and I worked on 2.5 years ago. Some of you not for much longer (I think we talked on the phone last in 2011 Soly) I'm alive!

Also to add, the Hadley and Waterbury tournaments that followed mine started playing with different rules. 5 of anything proxies, 10 of anything proxies, x number of free proxies - pay extra entry for more proxies, and who can forget the 'we're going to make a batch of less than authentic power cards to beef up the circulation, give them out as prizes, and have them not count towards the proxy limit' proxies. Somewhere in a box, I still have a Black Lotus and an Mox Emerald from those ill-fated events.

Another thing to remember was the guidelines that eventually took shape. Specifically, at the first Hadley tournament in the top 8, a dude played a land with a tiny strip of paper on it that was a Mox. There was a glare on the sleeve from the lights, I never saw that this was Mox-Monkey food, and almost lost a game because of it. That's when common sense rules started to apply. You had to make it clear what card it was, you had to include card text, and it couldn't be slips of paper (full sized or otherwise) because you could feel that thickness difference.

What's this? I'd love to hear more about these proxies.