Documentation of rules violations/questionable behavior by the Eternal Weekend Winner

@Soly union issues are what I heard as well. I wonder about CT or NJ as a good spot?

@socialite said:

@p3temangus said:

This is all on the back of a champs weekend that saw a 150+ attendance decrease.

To me this is the most important issue no one is talking about. This is what happens when you move the event to the middle of nowhere and split it across week/weekend days. Considering the people involved I'm a bit flabbergasted that the move from the East Coast was even considered to be a good idea in the first place. I would have expected them to have some semblance of social context/what our player base actually needs. Most working people/fathers I know couldn't attend because of timing/money, hands down. Yeah, lets gap the event by two days then move the location away from the highest concentration of Vintage players; fucking genius.

I don't consider that a surprise at all, and in fact, I consider 350 a success.

You move hundreds of miles west, you are bound to lose attendance. It took 3 years of building up the Philly location to get to the 463 number. Remember, the first eternal weekend had much less attendance. If the event was in it's 3rd year in Columbus, I would have expected over 500.

Also, the fact that it was on a Friday and during Halloween weekend all hurt.

One point I think deserves making is that as far as I can tell, when Joseph made a mistake on camera he tried to correct it or deflect without involving a judge. That's not how you play with integrity. I've called a judge on myself before, and I think any player who would never call a judge on his own mistake is flatly cheating. The rules of Magic are quite clear that trying to hide a mistake is evidence of intent to cheat, @katzby's personal conversation with the player notwithstanding.

last edited by ajfirecracker

@ajfirecracker I don't think the rules needed to know to play in a tournament are clear. There's 4 rules documents containing more than 300 pages together and there's also thousands of errata on another database.

@varal don't forget the detrimental missed trigger list, yet another huge database

First and foremost I would like to thank Abe, not only for choosing to engage in discourse with the vintage community, knowing full well what he was opening himself up to, but also for performing admirably at all Eternal Weekends to date. I have had a few quick discussions with him at past events when I felt a judge made a poor call or something seemed off during a very complicated game state and he has always shown a very high level of knowledge and professionalism during our exchanges.

I would also like to state my opinion that after having watched the twitch footage both live and on replay that I do not believe Mr. Bogaard intentionally tried to cheat. I do believe, however, that his play on camera was exceptionally poor, and that I am of the opinion that if he played this way on camera he likely played this way off camera as well.

There should be no dispute that playing extra lands per turn and failing to discard down to maximum hand size are significant advantages, after all there is a tier 1 strategy in vintage to limit the amount of mana a deck is capable of producing. However, I would very much like to point out that magic is a two player game, which requires interaction. During your opponent's turn it is in fact on you as well as them to keep track of how many cards in hand your opponent ends their turn with, just as much as it is on you to know whether your opponent has already played a land this turn when they go to play a new land. This is as much to protect yourself from intentional cheaters as it is to simply fulfill your obligation to maintain the board state. While it might not be the same level of onus on Joseph's earlier round opponents as on the man himself, if Joseph was in fact playing so poorly during the earlier rounds, part of the fault is on them for not informing the judge staff.

I have seen calls in this thread to have judge staff choose random games throughout the tournament and referee them. I would ask the people who want this to look up a few times during the first through third round of the next 300+ person event they play in and take a mental note of how many judges they see just standing around doing nothing. In my experience the number is usually zero. So in order to comply with the wish for referees the judging staff would need to be drastically increased. This means either less prize support, higher entry fees or both. I highly doubt that would be tenable, but proving it would require input from the majority of people attending the tournaments.

@Katzby said:

Friday- GRV 1 for failing to discard.
GRV2 for attempting to play a second land.
I did not hear about the second instance of playing two lands until after the match was over. In that case, the judge in the area considered the issue to be rooted in the missed Mana Drain trigger that we also handled, and didn't issue a further penalty.

The second instance of playing a second land, and how it was handled, interests me. I would like to here the reasoning behind determining that the action was rooted in the missed Mana Drain trigger. Does this mean that it happened at the same time? In which case would not the GRV take precedence over the missed trigger? Or was it that the table judge believed the action was a direct result of Joseph becoming flustered during the time it took to sort out the missed trigger?

Admittedly I can understand forgetting that you had already played a land this turn when you had to take a 5 minute break from the game for a judge ruling, and so believe it was an honest mistake. However, is it normal (and I do understand that none of this may occur often enough for it to be normal) for the table judge to correct the error without penalty?

Also, I fully understand that you were not called in at the time of the second extra land infraction, but I would like to ask about when you were presented the information after the game. Did it cross your mind to enforce the GRV after the fact? Were you shown the stream footage or simply told what happened? If told, do you think seeing the footage would have changed your decision?

I fully understand backing up your staff member's decision and believe that both doing so as well as reversing her decision and enforcing the GRV are both defense-able courses of action. I would simply like a glimpse into the mind of a head judge put into such a position.

@ajfirecracker said:

One point I think deserves making is that as far as I can tell, when Joseph made a mistake on camera he tried to correct it or deflect without involving a judge. That's not how you play with integrity. I've called a judge on myself before, and I think any player who would never call a judge on his own mistake is flatly cheating. The rules of Magic are quite clear that trying to hide a mistake is evidence of intent to cheat, @katzby's personal conversation with the player notwithstanding.

This more likely comes far more from playing in FNM style regular REL tournaments and lax play testing, where such things like take backs are common place. Not saying that it should be tolerated, simply pointing out that it is not necessarily cheating. Personally I have called more judges on myself than my opponents.

Apologies for the giant post,
Garrett Wiley

  1. unfortunately this very poor, loose player was allowed to win a tournament because many of his opponents were too shy, cowardice, and not attentive enough to realize they were being cheated by this guy.

I've said it many times before, in other threads, when you see cheating (which marked cards are) bring the attention to a judge immediately.

Your passiveness in not doing so is unethical, and allows for cheats to win tournaments.

  1. at least we all know the guy's name, and every time we play against him in a tournament I highly recommend touching every single card in his deck when he presents it to you.

He will be forever shamed by the ethical players who play this game. So enjoy winning this tournament. You are too terrible to a player to ever win another one without cheating.

@gkraigher The fact that you slander and vilify another in one breath and appeal to high ethical standards in the next is sadly ironic.

@BazaarOfBaghdad @gkraigher

Let's step back from gauging intent (which is inherently subjective) and remove the charged language from the replies. Do people believe that repeatedly breaking the rules of competitive Magic (either from sloppy play or with malicious intent) should be monitored and punished if warranted during the course of a large event? If so, then you need to call a judge when such a circumstance arises. The problem with many Vintage events is that this doesn't happen and that's an issue with our culture that needs to change. It is paramount to protecting the integrity of events and the responsibility falls on all us.

last edited by Guest

Does anyone know whether there is a Wizards article up yet about champs? I am a little confused. Normally, they have the obligatory picture of the winner with the portrait and a written interview with some quotes. I googled for this and didn't see it anywhere on wizards website.

Also, last year Randy interviewed Brian. Did I miss a similar interview in the coverage on twitch?

I may need to look harder. Or, it may be too early.

Unless the results are overturned or under official review, then this guy needs to get at least the basic coverage any other vintage champ would get for posterity. Imbalanced press doesn't look good for the event.

@Balanceftw I haven't see anything you speak of. Very strange. Also of note, the event results have NOT been published on www.mtgtop8.com while its legacy counterpart has.

@Nadacool and the painting has not been advertised "for sale" yet...

@Balanceftw said:

Does anyone know whether there is a Wizards article up yet about champs? I am a little confused. Normally, they have the obligatory picture of the winner with the portrait and a written interview with some quotes. I googled for this and didn't see it anywhere on wizards website.

I can't find it now but someone from WotC said there would be no coverage on their site.

@thecravenone said:

@Balanceftw said:

Does anyone know whether there is a Wizards article up yet about champs? I am a little confused. Normally, they have the obligatory picture of the winner with the portrait and a written interview with some quotes. I googled for this and didn't see it anywhere on wizards website.

I can't find it now but someone from WotC said there would be no coverage on their site.

Its probably for the best that they just let it go.

Card Titan has posted their coverage, which includes Joe as winner

While it would be fun to imagine that a sinister cabal was brooding over whether Joe would officially be named champ, I think it's more likely that CardTitan didn't post under the assumption that WotC would post it because why the hell wouldn't they.

@thecravenone said:

@Balanceftw said:

Does anyone know whether there is a Wizards article up yet about champs? I am a little confused. Normally, they have the obligatory picture of the winner with the portrait and a written interview with some quotes. I googled for this and didn't see it anywhere on wizards website.

I can't find it now but someone from WotC said there would be no coverage on their site.

This is a little concerning to be honest. Whether you like the champ or not, can't say I am happy about Wizards declining to post any coverage of Vintage champs. Especially when they used to give it pretty decent treatment. At least for me, I prefer editorialized print coverage to some twitch feeds.

We need to all come together as a community to unite behind our current Vintage Champion. There will be future championships but Joseph deserves an honest shot at leading the Vintage community. To all the aspiring cheaters out there, just know that your opportunity is coming - hopefully sooner than we think. God bless you, and God bless the Vintage community.

I sincerely doubt a lack of coverage from WotC has anything to do with this "controversy" - remember, from WotC's perspective there's no controversy at all. Some non-cheating penalties were handed out, some players expressed concerns and the Judges evaluated those concerns and determined nothing untoward happened. I wouldn't read too deeply into this.

Honestly, I have not watched the game. However when the Pic of him winning hit my facebook feed I thought I would stop back in here after about a ~5 year absence, and see what happened. I'm a little shocked, and a little bit not surprised by what i have read. I feel; right or wrong, that I should at least provide some incite.

To start I have known Mr. Bogaard since he was 12 – 14, I was in my early 20’s. I was one of the people that taught him Magic. He is exceptionally bright and analytical, almost to much. He sees the the best way to do something and could be very ridged, and slow to change. I think it took me 7-8 years to get him to understand a fun theme deck vs. a good well optimized deck, as well as the benefit of these kinds of deck in teaching the next generation of players. Once I beat this into his skull he became a very good teacher of the game as he took over for me at our local shop. During the Mid 2000’s he is the one who got me into the Vintage Tournament scene around Chicago. He won some lost more, but for him it was not about the winning it was about the challenge, competition and deck building.
It was back then that he joined organized play, and eventually became a level 2 judge at one point. I sold him my collection as I was leaving the hobby; life, wife, kid. He went off to college and started playing more online than in person, but was a big FNM guy for years, and local Standard tournaments. For the past 4-6 years he has not played a ton offline to my knowledge, between being a MD/PHD student and getting married and all that goes with that.

Now with the history out of the way here is what I’m not surprised about:

The way he shuffles. He has always since he was a kid shuffled in weird patterns. It has never given him an advantage. In fact when he would try new patterns it was always to find better randomness. This to me is just habit and nature, that no one has ever had an issue with in any tournament I have ever been to with him.

His sloppy play. Yes I’m not surprised at all with his sloppy play, and I whole heartily believe that it was just big piles of slop. The guy tends to think way to fast and way too far ahead. I told him he should play chess. Even when he was well rested and in total practice, tourneys every month, practice every weekend. He would get ahead of himself, if he was interrupted or distracted he would forget where he was in his turn, and do the stupid stuff talked about in this thread. It is why in my opinion he didn’t win more tourney’s back in the day. In fact in the local circuit we played he was known for this, and people learned to pay close attention to his turns and plays because of it. In fact some people would try to distract him on purpose for this reason.

He never complained or got mad, when he screwed up, he always accepted game loses or rulings that went against him with class. If he made a mistake he realized he always tried to correct it. Judges were hardly ever summoned in these cases. Back then players would try to figure it out themselves first. Only of an agreed upon solution could not be reached quickly would oversight be required.

For the sleeves, any that played him does he still shuffle his hand constantly while thinking? It does not surprise me that they would get beat to hell quickly. At least in the past he would always buy new sleeves for his deck for a tournament, because he beat them to hell.

Sorry for the block of text, but I felt I needed to chime in because this is one person that I know who has always been above board and accommodating. I have found him to be a great teacher of the game and ambassador of the game at the local level. I can see why some of you think the way you think. I understand. I just ask you not rush to judgement.

Thank you for reading and you patience.

Hi everyone, I'm sorry that it has taken almost two weeks to get a tournament report up; but part one (everything up to the top 😎 is now up and can be found here:

http://www.vintagemagic.com/blog/journey-to-the-2016-vintage-championship-top-8/

Please, take a look at the article to learn more about me, and my experience at Eternal Weekend, and let me know what you think of the article either in the comments on vintagemagic.com, or here in one of these threads.

Joseph

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