Documentation of rules violations/questionable behavior by the Eternal Weekend Winner

I think an additional clue would be the history of the guys associated with the Vintage Magic group. I've always given these guys the benefit of the doubt, but it's getting harder to ignore. It's just the common denominator of all the shady play I've witnessed over the years. Moving forward, I would take any Vintage Magic opponent very seriously when it comes to shuffling and monitoring for cheating.

last edited by Guest

I see a lot of misinformation about what happened on Sunday floating around the internet, including in this thread. I frankly fear getting involved at all, but I'm still considering chiming in to set the record straight on a number of points. Either way, I don't have time to do it now, but can maybe get something written up for later in the week.

However, I will say that I don't think this player was cheating, and also see that many of my efforts to show that I was taking the concerns of spectators/opponents seriously have instead backfired and have been construed as more evidence the player was cheating. I tried to make the other top 8 players and the viewing audience happy with some very publically-issued warnings and also some other precautionary actions, but these actions have just been misunderstood and thrown right back in my face. I worry that any attempt to explain further is just going to result in more of the same.

So, I dunno. What should I do?

@desolutionist Isnt Brian Demars with them? He seems like a good dude. But agree in general with what youre saying.

@Katzby I think what you have to say should be heard, I mean people have some good points, Id certainly be interested to hear your view.

last edited by rikter

@desolutionist said:

I think an additional clue would be the history of the guys associated with the Vintage Magic group. I've always given these guys the benefit of the doubt, but it's getting harder to ignore. It's just the common denominator of all the shady play I've witnessed over the years. If there is a guy, who hasn't played magic in several years yet rolling the top tables with "Vintage Magic" sleeves, I can't help but think he's been "coached up" by the Vintage Magic guys. Moving forward, I would take any Vintage Magic opponent very seriously when it comes to shuffling and monitoring for cheating.

Frankly, that's offensive. I played with Vintage Magic products and have for like 4 years, but its not a team. I never talked to Joe B once before or during Eternal Weekend this year. I didnt even know he was being sponsored. Nor did I work on decks with Paul, who played a completely different deck. The only person I worked with this year was Kevin Cron. Its wrong to smear people by association.

To all the people saying that he was just playing sloppy, sloppy play is no excuse. This is a competitive REL event, if you're playing sloppy you don't deserve to win. Everyone needs to be doing their part in a competitive event and calling judges whenever their opponent makes mistakes like these and judges should be doing their part in giving out warnings/upgrading them to losses after 3. Joe should have been given a game loss just based on what was on camera round 7. And if he was playing half as sloppy in the rest of the rounds, he should have been eventually given multiple game losses throughout the day so that he would never be in contention for top 8. It's kind of annoying that the penalties reset for the 2nd day given that day 2 was just top 8. Reseting penalties makes a bit more sense in a longer day 2 like a GP, but I think for just a day 2 top 8 it just allows for more sloppy play in top 8.

@Vnayin Alex Bertoncini is a case study on how cheaters routinely use minor GRVs to accumulate advantage over the course of a tournament. Repeated sloppy play that benefits the player is incredibly suspicious which is why in sanctioned tournaments warnings are issued and these instances are recorded.

@desolutionist Another clear game rule violation in the finals https://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/98040029?t=41m33s

Joseph Bogaard taps a fetchland for black mana (despite Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth no longer being in play)

This one doesn't seem likely to be intentional to me, but the way Magic penalties work they're supposed to be cumulative, so it should probably be part of the record

Alex Bertocini is/was a borderline professional Magic player who plays every day. Joe Bogaard is a physician in residency who barely plays Magic from what I've heard.

@Smmenen said:

Alex Bertocini is/was a borderline professional Magic player who plays every day. Joe Bogaard is a physician in residency who barely plays Magic from what I've heard.

Weakest excuse

Rules are rules

Of course rules are rules, but the head judge(Katzby) just said he didnt think Joe B was cheating. Alex obviously was a cheater.

@Smmenen said:

Of course rules are rules, but the head judge(Katzby) just said he didnt think Joe B was cheating. Alex obviously was a cheater.

OK then lead with your actual argument, and not some irrelevant thing about how the Vintage Champion doesn't have to follow the rules if he doesn't play often

I was responding to a different post, comparing to Alex.

last edited by Smmenen

@ChubbyRain You're right, which is why I was saying that people who were just calling him sloppy are missing the point. When we allow people to be sloppy we allow cheaters to act sloppy. We need to be more vigilant and less forgiving of sloppy play if we want to dis-incentivize cheaters from sloppy cheats like playing multiple lands a turn and not properly paying for sphere effects. A lot of vintage champs players don't play competitive magic too often perhaps there should be a sheet of what you should be calling a judge for as a GRV passed out at the start of the event or explained at the start of the event. Whether or not he actually cheated, he should not have been champ strictly from the additive effects of sloppy play after sloppy play.

@desolutionist https://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/98040029?t=41m50s Joseph drops a card in his lap and puts it back into his hand immediately

https://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/98040029?t=54m40s Joseph shuffles with a clearly-defined group of cards clumped together on the bottom that aren't getting shuffled, then cuts the clump into the middle of the deck

last edited by ajfirecracker

@Smmenen same head judge also said my opponent wasn't cheating, even jumped through hoops to help the kid talk his way out of incriminating himself. Never once in the history of playing in this format have I caught a player cheating me, let alone accuse them with a judge present. That happened for the first time to me on Friday.

last edited by Juggernaut GO

@Juggernaut-GO said:

@Smmenen same head judge also said my opponent wasn't cheating, even jumped through hoops to help the kid talk his way out of incriminating himself. Never once in the history of playing in this format have I caught a player cheating me, let alone accuse them with a judge present. That happened for the first time to me on Friday.

What in the world are you taking about?

Edit: seriously, can I have some more details? Was this an appeal I took or a call I answered directly?

Another edit:
Oh, I figured out who you are. You were concerned that your opponent drew an extra card, but then we counted them all and figured out that he had the right number. I also recall showing my math to you and giving you a chance to explain where I was wrong.

I'm terribly sorry this was an unpleasant event for you, but I assure you that I gave your call fair consideration. It's just that my conclusion was that nobody in your match was cheating.

last edited by Katzby

@Smmenen said:

Of course rules are rules, but the head judge(Katzby) just said he didnt think Joe B was cheating. Alex obviously was a cheater.

We have a much smaller body of evidence for Joe and a much larger body of evidence for Alex. Alex wasn't obviously a cheater the first couple of times - it was only after the accumulation of errors from many tournaments that the fact became apparent.

Being a physician also does not have any bearings on a person's morals. Some of the most cutthroat and morally bankrupt people I've met, I've encountered in medicine.

I hear you. Im willing to hear more evidence, and maybe im naive, but at this point Im skeptical that Joe intentionally tried to do anything nefarious. The reason I mentioned his profession wasn't because I think physicians are morally superior but because it suggests this isnt a person who is a conpetitive magic player who would even know how to exploit the rules to gain intentional advantage let alone do the things he's accused of beyond getting lucky and playing sloppy.

last edited by Smmenen

@desolutionist https://www.twitch.tv/cardtitan/v/98040029?t=03m00s Joseph plays a Mox Sapphire into a Thorn of Amethyst with no other mana sources in play

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