[Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays: Kaladesh

Smmenen

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-57-kaladesh/

6 hours of Vintage commentary. By far our longest podcast, but we thought it better to bring the whole kahuna rather than break it in chunks or parts. There are at least a few cards here Kevin and I believe will appear in Vintage Top 8s, but many that deserve a close look.
Please let us know what you think.

SO MANY INSANE PLAYS PODCAST EPISODE 57: KALADESH
by Kevin Cron Podcast, Vintage September 21, 2016
Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review Kaladesh for Vintage.

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 6:08:14 — 118.1MB)

0:01:00: Announcements
0:10:30: Kaladesh Masterpieces/Inventions
0:20:15: Eldritch Moon Report Card
0:38:10: Kaladesh Mechanics
0:47:15: Paradoxical Outcome
1:50:20: Aetherflux Reservoir
2:08:10: Fragmentize
2:28:10: Torrential Gearhulk
2:36:04: Ghirapur Orrery
2:47:04: Inventor’s Fair
3:01:57: Skysovereign, Consul Flagship
3:18:53: Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3:43:38: Combustible Gearhulk
3:52:43: Saheeli Rai
4:05:56: Kambal, Consul of Allocation
4:43:48: Ceremonious Rejection
5:07:12: Metallurgic Summonings
5:30:48: Dovin Baan
5:34:23: Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
5:53:25: Metalwork Colossus
Total runtime: 6:08:14
SHOW NOTES

– Kaladesh full visual spoiler

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

Dumpsterac1d

Big up to you guys doing 6+ hours on this set...

Getting started this morning!

ajfirecracker

Holy crap. I'm excited but dang is that a lot of content

Aelien

Obviously i have not been able to listen to the whole Podcast yet (6 hours is insane, great work!), i now listened up to the Fragmentize Segment.
For Paradoxical Outcome and Aetherflux Reservoir, please check out my list utilizing both (and Inventor's Fair) here: http://themanadrain.com/topic/628/reservoir-paradogs/3

You covered both cards pretty good, especially the Outcome. It really is extremely powerful but needs more build around than Gifts or Fact of Fiction. It is also not desirable to cast it using mana drain mana, like other big blue decks did in the past with the 4cmc draw spells. You want to generate the mana to cast it using permanents, that you probaly want to recast in the same turn. Like Brainstorm this card is played mostly in your own mainstep, at least in the deck i have built with it.
I think you underestimated Reservoir a little bit. It by itself is not a very powerful card and it don't think it does an effective job in a typical Storm shell. In this deck its a quite effective win condition. One quite funny side effect is against Storm is that just gaining a lot of life without winning (lets say you go up to 40, or even higher but are not able to activate it, for example because there is a Pithing Needle naming the Reservoir) makes it nearly impossible for a typical DPS list to win, which is cute. I agree that the card seems underwhelming at first, but in the right deck it poses a powerful win condition.

I love it already! Starting to listen now.

I'd just like to point out that I'm glad you guys fixed the sound because last episode was really hard to hear during commute.

But I'd like to add that, for as long as I've been listening to you guys (for quite some time!) Steve's sound quality always bothered me a little. I can still hear him fine, but the difference in volume and sharpness does throw me off a little. It's not something that makes it a drag to listen to, it's OK overall, but I'd love if you ever fixed that

Edit: oh, one thing. Vehicles are different than Tribal or Planeswalkers. Vehicles don't count for Tarmogoyf, for example. It's closer to Equipment than PWs

brianpk80

Oh this is going to be exciting. I recently switched from Blackberry to iPhone and I can listen to these podcasts so easily now. Looking forward to it,

-B

duchess

6+ hours is awesome, really looking forward to this. Thanks guys!

MaximumCDawg

Got through the discussion on Reservoir, and while your analysis of the problems of having your storm kill come at the beginning instead of the end, I think there were a few points you missed.

(1) This card DOES have Storm - Squared behavior, guys. To a point. You can use instants in response to the Reservoir triggers to amplify how much life you gain. Specifically, to the extent you can delay resolving your spells, you can keep pushing the storm count higher before they resolve. This means you may only need 6 or so spells to storm out, depending.

(2) Another way of using this card is basically ignoring its first ability and running an infinite life gain engine along side of it. Not that I think Zuran Orb + Crucible + Fastbond is the way to go here, but it's an angle you didn't explore.

(3) I don't think this card is bad at all over multiple turns. Once you resolve it, you're gaining 1 - 3 life a turn just by playing normally and threatening to win if they give you a chance to go off. That's a huge roadblock against cards like Thalia and it even lets you keep tapping your Cities of Brass if that's your bag. That's mitigated by the ease with which artifacts can be blown up in Vintage, but still.

Islandswamp

Thanks for doing this! Always makes my day when I get a new podcast to listen to.
I haven't gotten very far, just to paradoxical outcome, but I wanted to mention something. You guys talked about running this in a steel city vault type deck, and mentioned empty the warrens. There was a steel city vault type deck that went 5-0 at a gencon event, he was running empty. I took that type of list from mtgo and slotted in a few paradoxical outcome as an example of what kind of deck could use the card. So I think that basically the type of deck you were talking about kind of already exists, and I agree that it might have potential. I'm not sure how much better it would make that deck, but it seems very much a fun and exciting card.

I haven't been able to finish the podcast yet but just wanted to point out that you guys seem to be forgetting that Wispmare triggers Bridge from Below and that's one of the reasons it's used in Dredge sideboards

I'm finding it funny that you don't mention Mentor when talking about Outcome. I feel it's a card that can take very little to make Outcome good, and it can play big mana.
Also, I'm listening to Reservoir right now and just waiting for you to connect Reservoir to Outcome. You know, that "repeatable Storm engine" hehehe

Edit: hah you just did. Thanks. Phew!

Smmenen

@MaximumCDawg said:

Got through the discussion on Reservoir, and while your analysis of the problems of having your storm kill come at the beginning instead of the end, I think there were a few points you missed.

(1) This card DOES have Storm - Squared behavior, guys. To a point. You can use instants in response to the Reservoir triggers to amplify how much life you gain. Specifically, to the extent you can delay resolving your spells, you can keep pushing the storm count higher before they resolve. This means you may only need 6 or so spells to storm out, depending.

I think we acknowledged that.

The key point I was trying to make, and perhaps it got lost, is that you actually need a dedicated storm engine to fuel this. The life gain is so minimal that 1-3 spells per turn, spread across different turns, is not going to generate the critical mass of life needed in normal games to either build a defense or approach the activation cost to win the game.

That's why I posited that a more useful design would be the one that gains life more quickly, but has a higher life total activation cost (e.g. 2 life per spell, but 75 life activation cost). At least then, it would be a better defensive tool, but require the same amount of "storm."

(2) Another way of using this card is basically ignoring its first ability and running an infinite life gain engine along side of it. Not that I think Zuran Orb + Crucible + Fastbond is the way to go here, but it's an angle you didn't explore.

4 card combos aren't our wheel house.

(3) I don't think this card is bad at all over multiple turns. Once you resolve it, you're gaining 1 - 3 life a turn just by playing normally and threatening to win if they give you a chance to go off. That's a huge roadblock against cards like Thalia and it even lets you keep tapping your Cities of Brass if that's your bag. That's mitigated by the ease with which artifacts can be blown up in Vintage, but still.

Eh. Eldrazi, tokens, and hatebears strategies are going to deal more damage per turn than a 1-3 activation of this thing is going to offset.

ajfirecracker

Every card: Well, it's synergistic with Goblin Welder, but I don't know if that makes it good enough

MaximumCDawg

@Smmenen The life gain from reservoir may not outpace damage output from our aggro friends, but it can slow them down - perhaps significantly - and that may be enough for a deck to find a solution. One key element of hate bears seems to be ending the game promptly before the opponent draws out of the disruption and does something broken.

How sweet would it have been for your deck in the VSL to have been gaining a bit of life off reservoir in that last game?

It's kind of like an argument for Ivory Tower, I realize, but Ivory Tower is not also a win condition.

Also, I don't think you guys did talk about the Storm Squared behavior, at least not that I caught. You spend speculated a bit on whether that made it good enough; my point is that this behaviour exists already. Consider a turn where you go:

Git probe, trigger, hold priority.
Brainstorm, trigger, hold priority.
Plow your dude. trigger.

If you let the stack resolve now, each trigger gives you nine life. If you draw gas you can continuse doing this to some degree.

The point is that Reservoir may need LESS storm count than Tendrils to win. Also once you start talking about gaining 9 or more life per turn I think going off over the course of multiple turns is very reasonable.

ajfirecracker

@MaximumCDawg said:

@Smmenen The life gain from reservoir may not outpace damage output from our aggro friends, but it can slow them down - perhaps significantly - and that may be enough for a deck to find a solution. One key element of hate bears seems to be ending the game promptly before the opponent draws out of the disruption and does something broken.

How sweet would it have been for your deck in the VSL to have been gaining a bit of life off reservoir in that last game?

It's kind of like an argument for Ivory Tower, I realize, but Ivory Tower is not also a win condition.

Also, I don't think you guys did talk about the Storm Squared behavior, at least not that I caught. You spend speculated a bit on whether that made it good enough; my point is that this behaviour exists already. Consider a turn where you go:

Git probe, trigger, hold priority.

Brainstorm, trigger, hold priority.

Plow your dude. trigger.

If you let the stack resolve now, each trigger gives you nine life. If you draw gas you can continuse doing this to some degree.

The point is that Reservoir may need LESS storm count than Tendrils to win. Also once you start talking about gaining 9 or more life per turn I think going off over the course of multiple turns is very reasonable.

Each trigger gains you 3 life, not 9

Re: Metallurgic Summonings I think your 5-mana draw spell of choice (to make 5/5s) is probably Thoughtcast rather than Gush

ajfirecracker

Apparently every card is synergistic with Goblin Welder (which I mentioned above), Sensei's Divining Top, or Gush

Seems like a dated understanding of the support structure of the format

MaximumCDawg

@ajfirecracker said:

Each trigger gains you 3 life, not 9

Yeah, that's what I meant -- 3 each, 9 total.

Like I said, still not sure it's good enough, but not because it's a shabby card. The life gain is real and I think it's easier than people think to do nutty things with it.

Yet, Steve and Kevin's observation about the power of having a win condition that you only care about at the END of your Storm chain is very important, and being an artifact makes it very vulnerable to hate.

@ajfirecracker said:

Apparently every card is synergistic with Goblin Welder (which I mentioned above), Sensei's Divining Top, or Gush

Seems like a dated understanding of the support structure of the format

Well, just because some particular broken cards are at a low ebb does not make them any less broken. Welder is absurd and busted; it's just not really used at the moment because it's vulnerable to grave hate, artifact hate, creature hate, and 1-cc hate (misstep), and that list is pretty much... all the hate in the format.

About Skysovereign, it doesnt cost less than Trike necessarily because it suffers to Thorn. Also, I know Karn isn't that played nowadays, but Skysovereign would work pretty well with it (either crewing or transforming for 1).

Aelien

I want to pat Steve and Kevin on the back for acknowledging and addressing critique they received after the last podcast.

As what seems to be normal, Steve completely dismisses a great card, and Kevin is the source of reason.

I'm going to make you eat your words on how good Ceremonious Rejection is, @Smmenen -cakes.