September 2016 Banned and Restricted List updates

@ajfirecracker said:

@Brass-Man said:

@enderfall people leave because of the state of the meta every month - everyone likes different metagames. I think this b&r season was quieter than usual. While there were people upset with the state of things on TMD, it really wasn't more than usual. I wouldn't assume there's a consensus on what a healthy metagame looks like - threads like this should only drive that point home.

This is a cop out, which a number of players have tried to take. Ongoing changes doesn't mean there's no trend. Players leaving the format is compatible with a growing, healthy format. Players leaving the format is also compatible with a shrinking, unhealthy format. Without other signals, we should interpret it as a weak signal of shrinking (because if you lose 3 players all else equal the format is 3 players smaller). With corroboration from (e.g.) reduced MTGO Daily Event and Power 9 Challenge attendance we should interpret it a as a moderate or strong signal that the format is shrinking and unhealthy.

I think that interpreting Vintage participation on MTGO as anything other than a failing of MTGO development and management is a huge mistake. Paper Vintage tournaments have seen steady gains over the past couple of years, and will likely continue to do so in the short term. That is not a sign of a shrinking format. The reason people are bailing on Vintage on MTGO is because it is a terrible program, with limited rewarding experiences, and does not even allow people to play all of the cards available in the format. I understand how it is a great choice for some people who have limited or no exposure to Magic otherwise, but the failings of MTGO are well documented now and have driven away many, many Vintage players who have tried it (and many of those same players who still play paper Vintage).

Sidenote Edit: If any of you see this post and have constructive input on how you would redesign MTGO (everything from UI/UX to tournament structure to fee/ownership structure), please email me at jaco @ eternalcentral.com with input. I am going to write a couple of long form articles on the subject, and do no want to derail this thread.

last edited by JACO

*@ajfirecracker reduced MTGO play is not at all due to the disconnect between the card pools for paper and online vintage?

I think time and data will highlight the growth, or shrinkage of the format. Personally, I consider numbers from up-and-coming paper events over the next few months to be fantastic data points, as there is an easy comparison against previous years. Given the amount of time that vintage has been playable online, I find it not the strongest indicator of size of the player-base. I prefer yearly tracking, as opposed to weekly, or monthly tracking, but that is just a personal preference.*

@rbartlet @ajfirecracker This, and a general growing dislike for MTGO as a whole. I do not think I am alone in my belief that I was buying into MTGO (relatively) cheap for a product that could literally only improve, and in a year or 2 I'd be able to be proud of my online collection that had appreciated in value. Sadly, a continued lack of product improvement has totally sapped this belief from me to the point that I barely make any effort to play in the dailys or P9's and will likely sell my collection to a friend and put the $$ toward paper cards or Hearthstone.

edited to include quote..

last edited by p3temangus

MTGO was just an example. The claim I am making is that if players are leaving the format, that's something to be concerned about. Maybe you have some other piece of evidence that the format is growing and overall you're going in the right direction, but it's silly to say that you can just ignore players leaving because "it happens all the time"

@ajfirecracker said:

MTGO was just an example. The claim I am making is that if players are leaving the format, that's something to be concerned about. Maybe you have some other piece of evidence that the format is growing and overall you're going in the right direction, but it's silly to say that you can just ignore players leaving because "it happens all the time"

I have seen no indication that players are leaving the paper end of the format. The tournaments I attend and occasionally help organize are all holding pretty steady. But lets say for arguments sake that the paper format is shrinking. What evidence is there that this shrinkage is related specifically to the 'health of the metagame' as opposed to say people burning out, trying it out and finding they don't enjoy it, people being turned off by the price and the recent market manipulation etc?

There are a lot of factors that contribute to the growth or reduction of format participation and I don't see any evidence that one is 'the responsible' party for a shrinkage in attendance.

@anyone who wants to restrict Gitaxian Probe: What are the arguments for this?

@JuzamJim The fact that it's the 3rd Best unrestricted card in the format? It replaces itself (Young Pezzy and MMentor), is blue (Force of Will), and provides perfect knowledge of your opponents hand is too powerful for it's cost (FREE). I cut all but 1 duress effect in Doomsday because baring your hand just being Bee Aye En Aye En Aye Es, I can sculpt my plays for several turns around what's in your hand.

@Soly said:

@JuzamJim The fact that it's the 3rd Best unrestricted card in the format? It replaces itself (Young Pezzy and MMentor), is blue (Force of Will), and provides perfect knowledge of your opponents hand is too powerful for it's cost (FREE). I cut all but 1 duress effect in Doomsday because baring your hand just being Bee Aye En Aye En Aye Es, I can sculpt my plays for several turns around what's in your hand.

If it's that good, then how come people rarely Misstep it?

@JuzamJim Are you referring to a Turn 1/2 Probe, or any Probe cast at any point of the game? I'd venture that Turn 1/2 Probes are Misstep-ed far more often than not. Of course, context is everything, but sometimes Missteps are more valuable to protect your creatures from Bolt/Plow or to avoid Recall blow-outs, etc. Doesn't mean the card is any less oppressive. Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted and they certainly aren't worthy of misstep all the time.

last edited by enderfall

@enderfall said:

@JuzamJim Are you referring to a Turn 1/2 Probe, or any Probe cast at any point of the game? I'd venture that Turn 1/2 Probes are Misstep-ed far more often than not. Of course, context is everything, but sometimes Missteps are more valuable to protect your creatures from Bolt/Plow or to avoid Recall blow-outs, etc. Doesn't mean the card is any less oppressive. Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted and they certainly aren't worthy of misstep all the time.

In my experience turn 1/2 Probes are rarely Misstepped as well (unless the opponent has two Missteps in hand), but I can see that our experiences differ on this matter. I don't think that Probe is the problem. It's a fair card in it self. The problem is Mentor. Pyromancer is good but fair. Mentor is just rediculous and should never have been printed.

last edited by JuzamJim

@JuzamJim People rarely mistep it? I almost ALWAYS do.

I've flusterstormed it, even. The knowledge is way too powerful.

@JuzamJim said:

@enderfall said:

@JuzamJim Are you referring to a Turn 1/2 Probe, or any Probe cast at any point of the game? I'd venture that Turn 1/2 Probes are Misstep-ed far more often than not. Of course, context is everything, but sometimes Missteps are more valuable to protect your creatures from Bolt/Plow or to avoid Recall blow-outs, etc. Doesn't mean the card is any less oppressive. Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted and they certainly aren't worthy of misstep all the time.

In my experience turn 1/2 Probes are rarely Misstepped as well (unless the opponent has two Missteps in hand), but I can see that our experiences differ on this matter. I don't think that Probe is the problem. It's a fair card in it self. The problem is Mentor. Pyromancer is good but fair. Mentor is just rediculous and should never have been printed.

Probe is marginally less busted than when 4 x Dig or Cruise was legal but it's a brutal card. Almost free perfect knowledge, storm and delve mana in a pitchable card is absurd. The card, along with misstep has really dumbed down the initial turns of the game. Phyrexian mana in general was a massive fucking mistake.

I always played a full set of Gitaxian Probe in Noble Fish when I could. The synergy with Meddling Mage and sorcery 2 through 5 for Tarmogoyf was well worth it, but having perfect sequencing with a fish deck was ungodly.

Shake up the entire Vintage metagame and unleash 4x Strip Mine. Land destruction is just dope (as the kids would say).

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