September 2016 Banned and Restricted List updates

What I think SHOULD happen is restriction of gush and/or mentor, or the unrestricting of chalice of the void. As per gush/mentor the gush decks have maintained a huge percentage of the format for a long time and i feel like that has made the game stale. You are either faster than gush or you aren't and that's not fun when 1 archetype is clearly in a class of its own and everything else is trying to compete for second best. As per chalice, having all this free mana go unchecked is making decks sorta lazy in my opinion. Decks aren't being punished for playing loose mana bases and I think that is a problem. I'd like to see Blue moon come back along with prison shops. What I think WILL happen is either nothing or something silly like the restriction or serum powder or the unrestricting of library of alexandria.

last edited by BusOfTheUndead

@JACO just for clarification:

When Academy Rector dies, you may exile it. If you do, search your library for an enchantment card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

this means that leyline and also graveyard-exile stuff in response to the trigger stop rector from working.

@BusOfTheUndead Well when they unrestrict Channel they will have to nuke Serum Powder to stop all the turn 1 Channel-Emrakul Kills...

@peterflugzeug said:

@JACO just for clarification:

When Academy Rector dies, you may exile it. If you do, search your library for an enchantment card, put that card onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

this means that leyline and also graveyard-exile stuff in response to the trigger stop rector from working.

I'm aware of that, and have played the deck quite a bit. The Rector Omni deck in particular does not rely on the graveyard nearly as much though, because about half your games you just cast Show and Tell, and you can obviously just target that more aggressively in sideboard games as well if you don't even feel like fighting through hate. It does not crutch on Rector or Flash. That fact, coupled with the amount of effective Turn 1-2 wins that Flash can provide in Game 1, is awesome if you're the one casting the spells, but is not going to be fun for the format. But I guess I'll be happy if people ignore this advice and let me play with unrestricted Flash for 6 months before it gets restricted again.

@BusOfTheUndead said:

What I think SHOULD happen is restriction of gush and/or mentor, or the unrestricting of chalice of the void. As per gush/mentor the gush decks have maintained a huge percentage of the format for a long time and i feel like that has made the game stale. You are either faster than gush or you aren't and that's not fun when 1 archetype is clearly in a class of its own and everything else is trying to compete for second best. As per chalice, having all this free mana go unchecked is making decks sorta lazy in my opinion. Decks aren't being punished for playing loose mana bases and I think that is a problem. I'd like to see Blue moon come back along with prison shops. What I think WILL happen is either nothing or something silly like the restriction or serum powder or the unrestricting of library of alexandria.

Could you please fill your post with more trivial fallacies? There's so much wrong with this it's absolutely flabbergasting.

Prime example why it's good players have no real input on this matter.

last edited by Guest

Thanks for the clarification. I agree that the strategy itself is not the most fun maybe, but last time flash was unrestricted, alongside brainstorm and merchant scroll, it didn't even dominate (yeah I know, no sources here, just saying something. It did dominate that one invitational before getting axed). I would be interested in seeing that deck though, because you seem to have a list ready!

@socialite said:

@BusOfTheUndead said:

What I think SHOULD happen is restriction of gush and/or mentor, or the unrestricting of chalice of the void. As per gush/mentor the gush decks have maintained a huge percentage of the format for a long time and i feel like that has made the game stale. You are either faster than gush or you aren't and that's not fun when 1 archetype is clearly in a class of its own and everything else is trying to compete for second best. As per chalice, having all this free mana go unchecked is making decks sorta lazy in my opinion. Decks aren't being punished for playing loose mana bases and I think that is a problem. I'd like to see Blue moon come back along with prison shops. What I think WILL happen is either nothing or something silly like the restriction or serum powder or the unrestricting of library of alexandria.

Could you please fill your post with more trivial fallacies? There's so much wrong with this it's absolutely flabbergasting.

Prime example why it's good players have no real input on this matter.

LOL ok bud. Whatever you say.

@BusOfTheUndead said:

What I think SHOULD happen is restriction of gush and/or mentor, or the unrestricting of chalice of the void.

I do not want to see a meta with 4x sanctum prelate and 4x chalice of the void. And I did speak out against the void restriction when it happened. I played in a meta with 4x chalice and it was fine. What I'd like to see is chalice unrestricted and prelate restricted. But I never want to be in a meta with both unrestricted.

@Khahan i understand that having 8 of rougly the same harsh disruptive effect is worse than 4, but if one of them has to be restricted it sure has to be chalice. Its just the more powerful card in most situations. Prelate also would mostly only nerf one kind of deck that uses it. Every deck can cast chalice, not every deck can cast Prelate.

last edited by Aelien

A hard lock is the same as a win and should be treated as such when regulating the format.

I didn't play 4 Merchant scroll during the Flash era before the Vintage Apocalypse so that may be why I had thought it was the most likely candidate. I didn't play it in Gush-bond but that is because I was playing other almost-equivalent cards in its place. I find the comparison to Burning Wish compelling.

I did get the chance to play against the flash decks of those times and didn't have a problem beating the deck but it is a turn 1 win a huge percentage of games and that's not what wizards wants Vintage (or Magic: the Gathering) to be. It could only be beat if you're playing cards which can interact with it on turn zero. There's only a couple vintage viable cards that fit that description; Force of Will and Leyline of the Void. The card just isn't a viable candidate without errata and the errata is not valid in this case since its original functionality is the fundamental issue.

I think of Lotus Petal as something that is fairly innocuous; however, it has been a long time since I saw 4 get played in a Vintage storm deck. Since storm is already a major contender it doesn't make much sense for it to come off. The card by its self may be unworthy of restriction but there is no sense giving storm any more tools when it's already performing as well as it is. Similarly Lion's Eye Diamond would slot directly into current storm lists and is more powerful than petal. I'd expect an unrestricted Lion's Eye Diamond would also slot into dredge pushing that deck forward in its overall performance a fair bit. In legacy where the power nine are not a factor it doesn't strike me as oppressive but having access to three mana on top of the rest of the artifact mana of Vintage makes the special action of playing only one land per turn almost moot and that is not necessarily good for the format.

I used to think Channel was innocuous with a double green mana cost but if that spell resolves there are so many ways to just outright win now that didn't even exist when it was restricted. The card is just too good to ever come off at this point. Too many cards have been printed that make the exchange of one life for one mana into a game-ender.

I am surprised to hear people say that Fastbond could be unrestricted if Gush were restricted. An unrestricted Fastbond would be similar to an unrestricted Channel. The limit of one land per turn would become meaningless and Turbo-land would become tier one overnight. I would love to see Turbo land be tier one but with a set of Fastbond the deck would likely be unstoppable and affect the format far more than those calling for its un-restriction currently realize. In the past I've played Turbo-land in legacy with and without Gush and had success in both versions. The games feel like cheating when you have 10-12 land and are drawing 10 or so cards a turn while your opponent is sitting across from you contemplating plays that are completely irrelevant. With Fastbond at the core of the engine instead of Exploration the deck would be too good, even for Vintage. Similar to Lion's Eye Diamond as a four of it would make it too easy to bypass the one land per turn limit which the game relies on for stability and for enforcing multi-turn games. The same goes for most of the other fast mana in the format.

Trinisphere: This card was a cute idea but was not tested for eternal formats and it shows. It is the easiest turn one hard lock in the game and since a hard lock is as good as a win it should not come off.

Chalice of the Void is not a hard lock; however, it's a pretty firm one under the right circumstances. I enjoyed what this card brought to the format in terms of forcing people to diversify their mana costs. I would like to see it unrestricted but I don't think it is likely since it had such a potent synergy with Mishra's Workshop decks. The shops prison/agro strategies are still arguably the best in the format and Wizards can't really afford to give them more tools.

Imperial Seal. This card is only one mana. It's not as good as Vampiric Tutor but it's not far off either. The limit of four copies of a card per deck becomes less meaningful with this card’s un-restriction. Additionally the restricted list becomes less meaningful when you can play four copies of a one-mana unconditional tutor. Instead of four-ofs people are basically playing eight-ofs and instead of restricted cards we have five-ofs. It's just not the direction Wizards wants to go. Unconditional tutors need to cost more mana in order to not be castable on turn one. Even with this being a sorcery and putting the card on top of the library it makes games too deterministic. Turn one Swamp Imperial Seal for Lotus would be a menace to the format at 40% of opening hands. I put Demonic Consultation in this league as well because, although it would not assist in the early retrieval of restricted cards, it would get four-ofs without losing card advantage at instant speed.

Memory Jar is a 5 mana artifact. It is difficult to get into play and that is the strength of its design; however, the effect it generates is not stable. If you're drawing 7 cards you're very likely to generate more mana than you payed and also draw another way to draw 7 cards. Right now draw 7 based decks are not dominating the format. With cards like this unrestricted I suspect they would be. Specifically with Goblin Welder and Mox Opal Tezzeret style mana base this card could put that deck over the top. I would accept being wrong but doubt that it is safe to un-restrict this card. It likely never will be. At three mana Windfall falls under this category as well but is even easier to cast on turn one. Memory Jar has long been a curious possibility though since it has not been unrestricted/unbanned in any format since it was first printed.

Balance is a card that can never come off. As a core strategy it would completely invalidate any deck relying on creatures, lands, or cards in hand that were not able to interact on turn zero. That is far too broad a spectrum for one strategy to render ineffective. The card is just too good at what it does which is completely negate most of the cards in the game of Magic: the Gathering. With serum powders, fast mana, and tutors this would easily be a turn one play and even that is not the best way to play the card. The only effective retorts are hand destruction and counter magic which are easily sidestepped. Balance is too close to an auto win for two mana to allow as a four-of.

Library of Alexandria is another card that I don't think will ever be safe to take off the list. Even with most fast mana restricted it is too easy to generate mana without playing lands in Vintage for it to be safe to spend your land drops on drawing additional cards each successive turn. This would supersede Gush by a long-shot in enabling early card advantage and would lead to a whole new strategy that would almost certainly be problematic. It also slots into every dredge list as a four-of and makes that strategy even more consistent.

Ponder and Brainstorm are not restriction worthy on their own. They were restricted as a means to control other strategies. Currently Gush based Monastery Mentor decks are a solid contender. Un-restricting either of these would lead to their inclusion as four-ofs in what is arguably already one of the best decks in the format. It is unlikely to happen for that reason alone; however, I suspect the difference between Ponder and Preordain is marginal while Brainstorm has a bit more of an edge when combined with the fetch lands. I would like to see these cards unrestricted as I strongly believe that it is a discredit to the format to have them restricted while other overtly and dramatically more effective cards are not.

Necropotence allows players to pay one life per card. Same with Bargain. Bargain being twice as much mana to cast makes me feel safer about its un-restriction; however, I can't imagine anyone who has ever played with or against these cards believing that they are safe as four-ofs. Similar to Channel exchanging one life per mana or Fastbond exchanging one life per land drop the effect is not safe for the early turns of the game. It is an endearing end-game strategy that represents an historic discovery in magic theory but for three mana and no other setup the effect comes online too early and invalidates some baser strategic limitations that the game heavily relies on in order to be the famously deep and rich game that it is. I am uncertain whether Yawgmoth's Bargain would be safe but the casting cost of Necropotence means it will very likely never come off the list.

Mystical Tutor: Similar to Imperial Seal it makes the restricted list and maximum of four less effective. It is; however, conditional similar to Enlightened Tutor which does not appear to be having a particularly negative impact on gameplay. What are people’s thoughts on the un-restriction of Mystical Tutor? Is it safe? Is it not safe? It enables a more reliable balance and/or Tinker strategy. Is it too reliable/good as a four-of?

last edited by Aaron Patten

@Evoclipse said:

@Khahan i understand that having 8 of rougly the same harsh disruptive effect is worse than 4, but if one of them has to be restricted it sure has to be chalice. Its just the more powerful card in most situations. Prelate also would mostly only nerf one kind of deck that uses it. Every deck can cast chalice, not every deck can cast Prelate.

This is exactly why I'd prefer to see prelate restricted and chalice unrestricted. While prelate only helps 1 archetype, chalice helps many. Prelate will allow white hatebears and X/W hatebears. Chalice will allow 'hatebears' and fish and slot into shops (which I'm not thrilled about but sacrifices.....). It can got into U control. It will see more play, help more archetypes to establish and be better overall.

Plus I think prelate is more oppressive. You cannot even cast spells with prelate. With chalice you can cast stuff like Dromoka, creatures from caverns or even bosejui to get around the affect. You can cast spells knowing they will be countered to make other parts of your deck work (mentor, storm etc). And chalice on its own cannot win you the game. 2 prelates at the right #'s could be game over for many decks. At least with chalice you need a 3rd card for a win con even if you have 2 chalice in play.

@BusOfTheUndead said:

@socialite said:

@BusOfTheUndead said:

What I think SHOULD happen is restriction of gush and/or mentor, or the unrestricting of chalice of the void. As per gush/mentor the gush decks have maintained a huge percentage of the format for a long time and i feel like that has made the game stale. You are either faster than gush or you aren't and that's not fun when 1 archetype is clearly in a class of its own and everything else is trying to compete for second best. As per chalice, having all this free mana go unchecked is making decks sorta lazy in my opinion. Decks aren't being punished for playing loose mana bases and I think that is a problem. I'd like to see Blue moon come back along with prison shops. What I think WILL happen is either nothing or something silly like the restriction or serum powder or the unrestricting of library of alexandria.

Could you please fill your post with more trivial fallacies? There's so much wrong with this it's absolutely flabbergasting.

Prime example why it's good players have no real input on this matter.

LOL ok bud. Whatever you say.

Yeah. Ditto. Come back to the conversation when you can field something other than Dredge, it's pretty clear you know absolutely nothing since you're literally just spewing verbatim fallacies that have been proven over and over (on this site, even) to be horribly incorrect.

last edited by Guest

@Khahan said:

@Evoclipse said:

Plus I think prelate is more oppressive. You cannot even cast spells with prelate. With chalice you can cast stuff like Dromoka, creatures from caverns or even bosejui to get around the affect. You can cast spells knowing they will be countered to make other parts of your deck work (mentor, storm etc). And chalice on its own cannot win you the game. 2 prelates at the right #'s could be game over for many decks. At least with chalice you need a 3rd card for a win con even if you have 2 chalice in play.

Sanctum Prelate doesn't affect creature spells. It only prevents non-creature spells from being cast.

@Aaron-Patten said:

@Khahan said:

@Evoclipse said:

Plus I think prelate is more oppressive. You cannot even cast spells with prelate. With chalice you can cast stuff like Dromoka, creatures from caverns or even bosejui to get around the affect. You can cast spells knowing they will be countered to make other parts of your deck work (mentor, storm etc). And chalice on its own cannot win you the game. 2 prelates at the right #'s could be game over for many decks. At least with chalice you need a 3rd card for a win con even if you have 2 chalice in play.

Sanctum Prelate doesn't affect creature spells. It only prevents non-creature spells from being cast.

I'm aware of that. Both have pros and cons to them. While they are similar effects and on a broad scale do the same thing, they do it in slightly different ways. When comparing oppressiveness I find the prelate to be more oppressive for the reasons I stated above. Remember, not everybody wants to play a creature heavy deck. I would much rather face down 2 chalices than 2 prelates.

@Aaron-Patten said:

A hard lock is the same as a win and should be treated as such when regulating the format.

I didn't play 4 Merchant scroll during the Flash era before the Vintage Apocalypse so that may be why I had thought it was the most likely candidate. I didn't play it in Gush-bond but that is because I was playing other almost-equivalent cards in its place. I find the comparison to Burning Wish compelling.

Burning Wish was restricted at the same time as LED (and Chrome Mox). At the time, I said it was overkill. All they needed to do was restrict LED, and see if Burning Wish also needed restriction.

In contrast, Merchant Scroll was actually the problem card, in my estimation, when Gifts got restricted. Merchant Scroll found Ancestral, Gifts, and Force. Merchant Scroll desperately needed restriction in 2007, as it was the core card in both the Flash and the Gush decks. I would seriously unrestrict Mystical Tutor before Merchant Scroll.

Unrestrict:

Chalice of the void
Windfall
Imperial seal
Balance
Channel

Restrict:
Oath of Druids (for the same reasons as lodestone golem)
Zodiac dragon (after changing the errata back to the original wording of the card)

last edited by gkraigher

@gkraigher said:

Restrict:
Oath of Druids (for the same reasons as lodestone golem)
Zodiac dragon (after changing the errata back to the original wording of the card)

Zodiac Dragon
7RR
Creature - Dragon
If Zodiac Dragon is put into your graveyard, you may return Zodiac Dragon to your hand.
8/8

The original wording is awkward, it is worded half as a replacement effect and half as a triggered ability. The "if" means replacement effect while the "is" means the card is already in the graveyard when it's effect happens so it's a triggered ability. The current text clearly indicates it's a triggered ability. It seems to be the exact intent of the card. The battlefield part is only to clarifies that it only works from the battlefield but the effect would be the same if it wasn't there; abilities only work on the battlefield unless otherwise mentioned.

last edited by varal

Assuming it's a "from anywhere" trigger, what breaks? Zombie Infestation?

@varal

it's not ambiguous, its clearly a replacement effect. In fact, it should be able to get around cards like Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void.

Portal 3 was a stand alone set, with cards like Cao Cao, Lord of Wei. You are wrong if you think this card does what it was intended to do.

last edited by gkraigher
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