@Macdeath what are you cutting for maindeck grids? also 2 more in the board? is the meta just pure counterspells?

also what is everyones opinion of playing a wipe away over the chain of vapor if were trying to dodge things like mistep? might as well dodge all the rest of the countermagic right?

@snowydude said:

personally i cut all my dredge hate entirely. i just dont find it necessary to run interaction against a slower combo deck. that said i think having it split like 2 trap 1 leyline 1 tormods crypt would be betterr. but thats just my assumption with no basis on data.

Cutting everything seems very risky and would make a favorable matchup unnecessarily hard. While Dredge doesnt have such explosive starts as TPS it still consistently wins on turn 3 or turn 2 if they have 2 bazaars. Iam hesitant to split. Leylines seem like a all or nothing deal.

@darkquarterer said:

I've always felt comfortable with 2-3 sideboard cards against dredge vs no hate. [...] I prefer Ravenous Trap over Leyline, but I also really like Nihil Spellbomb.

If you only play 2-3 hatecards i agree with traps or other cards over leylines. The card draw of spellbomb is nice and i think the mana investment is manageble. However when it comes to non continues exile effects i prefer the intant and non permanent (card type) solution of trap over crypt and spellbomb. A crypt or spellbomb allows more interaction, sometimes forcing you to pull the trigger if they play a removal spell on it. It allows for more play around i from the dredge player.

@Hrishi said:

They might be slower than you are, but they sure can disrupt you on the way. [...] You only need to slow them down so things like Tormod's Crypt and Rav Trap are what I prefer using.

I agree, i will run 3-4 traps. With traps over leylines i also feel more flexible on the count.

@Islandswamp said:

I like rav trap as it does a little work in the mirror too. I bring one or two in and you can buy yourself a turn to go off if you trap them in response to a petition or will.

Some unexpected GY hate can be very disruptive thats true. I tend to struggle more with it than with permanent GY hate against me, just because you are able to plan and play around a RIP. Of course you can play around a trap as well but it tends to come more unexpected. What do you board out for it?

@Macdeath said:

Leyline is pretty bad for this deck [...] Ravenous trap or surgical extraction/extirpate are much better against them in my experience. They [...], are hard to interact with and more flexible in other matchups.

I wouldnt call Leylines bad, a turn 1 leyline usually is enough to buy enough time to win without any problems. But as said above i agree that, especially if you dont dedicate 4slots for it, traps do a better job. I agree that they are harder to interact with (however leyline cant be countered, wich is nice, but rarely relevant) and way more flexible. The flexability is what sold me on them. Iam not a fan of extraction/extirpate, even though extraction is one of my pet cards, i dont think it does enough in this scenario and traps are most of the time superior.

4 slots vs dredge seems very overkill [...], 2/3 seems like the right balance depending on the metagame.

i liked 4 slots a lot, but with more and more blue and prison decks beeing played i agree that a cut down might be necessary.

I feel like against blue decks (and in a heavy flusterstorm mental misstep field), you most definitely need defense grids in the maindeck. I've been very happy with 4 duress, 2 therapy, 2 grid maindeck and 2grids sb for a while now.

Now that seems overkill to me. I get 1 grid maindeck in a heavy blue meta, i have played it myself for a while and im swinging back and forth on having 3 therapies or 2 therapies and 1 grid maindeck. 2 grids maindeck however are too many dead cards against non blue decks. They are just so terrible against shops/eldrazi/hatebears/mirror and other dedicated combo decks. I rather play a therapy more and have that cards deal with a broader field of decks quite nicely.

Bounce spells are a must have in the sideboard. A substantial amount of blue players are going to be bringing in cards like Rest in Peace, Aegis of the gods, Arcane Laboratory, (Stony Silence, Mystic Remora) against you and relying on chain of vapor (prime misstep target) to get rid of them isn't going to cut it.
Echoing truth and Rushing river help you hedge against such threats while also being relevant against eldrazis, hatebears and shops.

I agree, i have had more problems against permanent hate like. i think i will dedicate one sideboard spot on bounce, however i will most likely just bring it in if i see that kind of hate in the frist game after boarding. Lets take the UWX mentor matchup: i already board in 3xDefense Grids, 1x Plague Spitter and 1x Massacre. I struggle to not water down the main Plan too much fitting on another card! Currently im boarding out Wheel, Twister, Hurkyl's, 1x Dark Petition and LED (it looses power without draw 7s). Im not so sure on the boarding about of the draw 7s though since yeah, they are pretty mediocre if you give your opponent a fresh 7 which they can now use to survive the turn, but they are pretty good once you have a defense grid out.

@snowydude said:

also what is everyones opinion of playing a wipe away over the chain of vapor if were trying to dodge things like mistep? might as well dodge all the rest of the countermagic right?

You seem to forget how powerful of a tool chain of vapor is if you dont need to bounce something with it. The production of mana and storm count is not to be underestimated. It has the potential to produce a lethal tendrils out of nowhere. Ive seen a lot of my opponents underestimate the card a lot and only focusing on disrupting threats like yawg will. It produces a win faster than you would expect.
I will not be cutting Chain any time soon. Also you have to keep in mind that you dont always want to bounce stuff only against blue decks, 1UU is very harsh to cast against shops/eldrazi/hatebears.

Thanks for the Answers everyone. My new board looks like this now:
3x Defense Grid
1x Plague Spitter
1x Massacre
2x Hurky's Recall
1x Rebuild
2x Pack Rat
1x Echoing Truth
4x Ravenous Trap

Some last thoughts: i like echoing truth because it deals with multiples at once and i also good against tokens. Ive been thinking about moving the Island in the maindeck since new thalia seems to be quite powerful.
Keep in mind that if i was not agreeing with your sideboard choices, iam aware that they might be correct for your local meta.

Edit: I have put the Island maindeck, i was running only 12 lands anyway. The Sideboard list above it not the most recent. (i will test it in a few hours tonight)

last edited by Aelien

Against another DPS deck I would take out one Dark Petition and probably one or both of the bounce spells. If I had main deck Grids I'd take those out first though.

Then I bring in two or three Rav Traps. It's possible I'd only bring in two in place of the blue bounce spells and leave the four Petitions. but depending on what I saw them do in game two I might switch things around if there's game three. I always assume people will attack my graveyard so I remove one Petition in game two 90% of the time.


i almost never actually use the geernate storm mode of chain, so much so that it got moved to the board in my deck. also having 4 of the same card is really bad vs cabal therapies.

What do you guys think about Spinning Darkness? Is kills most problematic creatures save TKS. In a matchup where your lifetotal is under attack this might be better than snuff out. Removing the top 3 black cards however does not seem much different from Murderous Cuts Delve ability, which will also use fetchlands.

@Evoclipse exiling 3 black cards from the yard doesnt sound too unreasonable. but the fact that you are never ever casting it for its actual mana cost could become an issue. at what point would it just be easier to just cast snuff out or slaughter pact?

last edited by Guest
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