As a rule I still like playing Timetwister, personally. It's a very nice reset button that sometimes is necessary. However, when going for lines I very rarely try to go for one that involves a Timetwister (unless I have no choice).

@Hrishi i agree its either a powerful turn 1 play if you have a lot of fast mana and you are sure it resolves, but most of the time its a panic-reset- button.

how can you guys have so little faith in storm?
have you never won a game where you desire for 3 or 4?
have you never miscounted your mana and had to ponder into tendrils
have you never kept a no lander with a probe and got there?

come on guys magic is a game of skill but also a game of luck. if you refuse to ever allow yourself to roll dice on a draw step you shouldn't be playing storm at all.

personally i play storm because interaction is for standard, i like getting to draw all of the cards possible, the card yawg will, that 12% chance to just win a game because my opponent kept a reasonable hand. also the card yawg will.

seriously why do you guys choose to play storm? is it not because you like being a degenerate.

@Evoclipse must counter spells is going to be at least half the deck you know. can't really claim that as a core thing

@snowydude What's the relevance here? Little faith in storm? Choosing not to play draw7s does not equate to having little faith in storm. In fact, draw7s do not make what storm is. You can choose to play with them, but you certainly don't have to.

Yes, magic is a game of skill and has some luck thrown in there. I don't see the problem with trying to minimize how much bad luck can burn you. If you aren't doing this, bad luck WILL burn you over the course of a large event. All it takes is one fizzled draw7 to knock you out of top8 contention and nobody likes that. This is why I personally dislike them and will avoid playing them as much as possible.

There are plenty of storm decks that take the extreme side of variance, just as there are storm decks that take the minimum variance possible. They are all storm decks and ignoring one in favor of the other is incorrect.

That being said, if you find playing draw7s fun, then play them? By all means, magic is a game first and if you aren't having fun there's a problem right there. There are legitimate reasons to cut them from your deck and I believe that is what many comments here are talking about.

last edited by Hrishi

@snowydude said:

@Evoclipse must counter spells is going to be at least half the deck you know. can't really claim that as a core thing

Under that i was counting stuff like Bargain, Desire, Necro, Will and, yes, also Wheel and Twister. I agree that most turors or ancestral are "must counters" a lot of the time, but those are already in other categories.

@Hrishi im not even talking about the draw 7s anymore im talking about how you guys seem to want to reduce variance to 0. i understand wanting to win and moving the deck in a way to accomplish that goal but how much less variance can you get? the deck is playing 20 dark rituals 6 demonic tutors and a 10 cards that simply draw the previous cards. that's literally the entire deck well lands too i guess. but you guys talk as if its somehow super inconsistent.

i dont know if its my misinterpretation but it feels like the mana drain guys want to play control and use tendrils as a wincon rather than play storm. all of this card advantage, reduced variance, long game, style of deck rather then going "do you have an answer for this right now? ok how about this."

let me confirm that the deck "storm" is in fact what i think it is because maybe im not playing storm maybe im playing some other unnamed archetype:
Storm is a deck that wants to cast multiple spells in a single turn and then finish the game with a lethal tendrils of agony.

@snowydude Reducing variance to 0 is impossible. However, you can get variance as low as possible. Draw7s increase this variance. There is enough variance in storm decks as it is, considering storm decks essentially use the restricted list as a pseudo-draw engine. Maybe I am misinterpreting your argument, but it seems to me that you view high variance as an intrinsic part of storm decks.

Storm is a deck that wants to cast multiple spells in a single turn and then finish the game with a lethal tendrils of agony.

Does the above statement make any claims as to whether you're playing the short game or the long game? Does it make any claims as to whether you have high variance or low variance? Does it make any claims as to whether you're winning by casting bombs or by winning through superior card advantage?

At the end of the day, if your goal is to cast multiple spells in a turn and finish with a tendrils of agony, there are many ways to achieve this goal.

@desolutionist sorry i just noticed you asked me this.

Have you ever Dark Petitioned for a Twister? If so, why and how often?

no because i only cast dark petitions with spell mastery and get will or necro. or tendrils on occasion. i have however vamp'd, DT'd, for wheel and burning wished for windfall in my board. reasons include having primarily colorless mana, having 5 mana in some combination of red/ blue mana in my opening hand, when i cast desire hit LED and want more cards. in total the count is probably less than 10 in all the games i've ever played but its not 0. oh they are also pretty good after you necro for a bunch and then need 7 more cards because necro for 10 wasnt good enough. that happened all of once. but im going to count my corner case here.

@Hrishi said:

@snowydude Reducing variance to 0 is impossible. However, you can get variance as low as possible. Draw7s increase this variance. There is enough variance in storm decks as it is, considering storm decks essentially use the restricted list as a pseudo-draw engine. Maybe I am misinterpreting your argument, but it seems to me that you view high variance as an intrinsic part of storm decks.

i view storm as super low variance deck. so low that adding 2 or 3% with a draw 7 is actually completely unnoticeable. so low that i am in fact playing a total of 4 draw 7s in my 75. because the minute increase in variance is easily worth the extra 40% chance to instantly win the game after casting 1.
note windfall is an awful card that i hate casting but has actually won me 2 games where it only drew 4 and 5 cards respectively
extra note: there was a game where my opp had a consecrated sphinx in play and i cast a wheel of fortune drawing him 21 cards and still proceeded to easily win that game after getting my tendrils mind break trap'd.
last note sometimes i just cast a draw 7 because my opp has to counter it

last edited by Guest

@snowydude

Since you're not Petitioning for Timetwister very often, you can see how it is not essential to the strategy. The Dark Petition, Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe core is just so good at what it does, there is no need for high variance cards ranging from Timetwister to Mind's Desire. Of course, those cards can definitely be played to great success in an 'high octane' build of DPS. Personally, I try to cover my weak points and play to my strengths and so far the omission of the Draw7s and the more situational bombs (Mind's Desire), has actually worked out quite well.

@desolutionist said:

@snowydude

Since you're not Petitioning for Timetwister very often, you can see how it is not essential to the strategy. The Dark Petition, Dark Ritual, Gitaxian Probe core is just so good at what it does, there is no need for high variance cards ranging from Timetwister to Mind's Desire. Of course, those cards can definitely be played to great success in an 'high octane' build of DPS. Personally, I try to cover my weak points and play to my strengths and so far the omission of the Draw7s and the more situational bombs (Mind's Desire), has actually worked out quite well.

Im all about eliminating variance, but i think cutting all of the draw 7s as well as Desire seems very questionable. Desire just got so much better with the ascend of Dark Petition. Before you needed to resolve a Desire for about 6-7 to pretty mich secure a victory, now a desire for 4-5 is good enough in most cases since hitting a Dark petition is just so powerful (it is the same as hitting demonic and dark ritual).

What are you playing instead of draw7s and Desire in your List?

@Evoclipse

Dark Confidant

@desolutionist yeah dark confidant is a beast of its own. im not a fan at all of him in decks with 4 dark petitions. I Guess if you try to go for the mid to long game he might be fine, but with Storm im more on @snowydude 's side: i want to play it as a hardcore combo deck. Not a grindy deck that wins with a combo. I want to to be able to play a disruption spell turn one, and turn two resolve a big threat or win outright. Confidant doesnt fit in that plan.

last edited by Aelien

Alright i tested a bit and i have come to a non-synergy that might still be worth playing.
First of all, the pack rat plan is a fine choice against shops and hatebears (since the new Thalia came out, hatbears sees some more play and it actually not easy to beat without the rat plan).
The second thing is that i think massacre is in genral a better choice than plague spitter. Yeah it lacks the periodic token cleaning and you cant effectively use it against non white pyrodelver decks (but ive not had many problems with pyro decks to be honest, the mentor matchup seems much more problematic), however it performs better against mentor killing the mentor itself sometimes, also it performs pretty good against new thalia and hatebears decks. Ofcourse against hatebears decks you would want to board both rats and massacre making it kind of a nonbo.

So i was pondering about my sideboard. I have been playing 4 leylines and 2 traps against dredge for a while. However incorparing pack rats and Massacre/Plaque spitter into the board demands space. As it stands im willing to go down to 4 anti dredge cards. Im not sure if 4 leylines, 4 traps or a split is the best. I have always felt very safe with the elylines. By the time Dredge finds an answer i usually am ready to off. However the leylines require to have them in your opening hand while a trap is still good if you draw it or tutor for it. Maybe the disruption from 4 traps is enough. What are your experiences?

My board currently is:
3x Defense Grid (4 Duress, 3 Therapy main)
1x Plague Spitter
1x Massacre
2x Hurkyl's Recall (1 main)
1x Rebuild
2x Pack Rat
1x Island
4x (Leyline of the Void/Revanous Trap)

last edited by Aelien

@Evoclipse personally i cut all my dredge hate entirely. i just dont find it necessary to run interaction against a slower combo deck. that said i think having it split like 2 trap 1 leyline 1 tormods crypt would be betterr. but thats just my assumption with no basis on data.

@Evoclipse I've always felt comfortable with 2-3 sideboard cards against dredge vs no hate. Getting your hand wrecked by a turn 2 double therapy sucks. I prefer Ravenous Trap over Leyline, but I also really like Nihil Spellbomb. Drawing a card can be nice some times.

I like running with 3-4 pieces of dredge hate. They might be slower than you are, but they sure can disrupt you on the way. Not to mention there are some which run stuff like FoW and Misstep. You can always take the gamble and run 0 hate and assume you don't run into one, but I'm not a fan myself.

You only need to slow them down so things like Tormod's Crypt and Rav Trap are what I prefer using.

@Hrishi I like rav trap as it does a little work in the mirror too. I bring one or two in and you can buy yourself a turn to go off if you trap them in response to a petition or will.

@Islandswamp said:

@Hrishi I like rav trap as it does a little work in the mirror too. I bring one or two in and you can buy yourself a turn to go off if you trap them in response to a petition or will.

i had no considered that. its cute. i prefer the artifact based hate as it has a non 0 impact on academy.
@darkquarterer does spell bomb not require mana to draw and mana to cast? thats alot of investment against a turn 2.5 deck

@Evoclipse said:

So i was pondering about my sideboard. I have been playing 4 leylines and 2 traps against dredge for a while. However incorparing pack rats and Massacre/Plaque spitter into the board demands space. As it stands im willing to go down to 4 anti dredge cards. Im not sure if 4 leylines, 4 traps or a split is the best. I have always felt very safe with the elylines. By the time Dredge finds an answer i usually am ready to off. However the leylines require to have them in your opening hand while a trap is still good if you draw it or tutor for it. Maybe the disruption from 4 traps is enough. What are your experiences?

My board currently is:
3x Defense Grid (4 Duress, 3 Therapy main)
1x Plague Spitter
1x Massacre
2x Hurkyl's Recall (1 main)
1x Rebuild
2x Pack Rat
1x Island
4x (Leyline of the Void/Revanous Trap)

Leyline is pretty bad for this deck (all the extra cards your deck can allow to see make it meh and if you are able to hardcast it odds are you were winning anyway) , Ravenous trap or surgical extraction/extirpate are much better against them in my experience. They buy you a turn or two (which is all you need) for a great deal mana wise, are hard to interact with and more flexible in other matchups (notably the mirror). 4 slots vs dredge seems very overkill ( you'd have an above 50% win rate with 0 cards), 2/3 seems like the right balance depending on the metagame.

I feel like against blue decks (and in a heavy flusterstorm mental misstep field), you most definitely need defense grids in the maindeck. I've been very happy with 4 duress, 2 therapy, 2 grid maindeck and 2grids sb for a while now, really feels like you are in the driver's seat against blue decks.

Bounce spells are a must have in the sideboard. A substantial amount of blue players are going to be bringing in cards like Rest in Peace, Aegis of the gods, Arcane Laboratory, (Stony Silence, Mystic Remora) against you and relying on chain of vapor (prime misstep target) to get rid of them isn't going to cut it.
Echoing truth and Rushing river help you hedge against such threats while also being relevant against eldrazis, hatebears and shops.

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