@desolutionist so its just about going wide with your win conditions? In my head (again i didnt test i yet, but i plan to get my hands on some rats) the plan still seems pretty wonky.
If you have a rat out and they revoker it, even if you manage to still have CCB open to produce another rat you'll have 2 2/2s sitting there. i doubt the revoker will attack in and allow a trade. if you attack with 1 rat at a time and keep 1 for blocking the clock is still very slow and gives the shops or eldrazi player enough time to find bigger or more beasts with ease. In that scenario you also had at least BBCCC up (to cast rat and produce another) in most cases if i manage to ge to a mana count like that i much rather just cast an EoT hurkyl's thorugh the spheres instead and untap unbothered.
Also you mentioned getting revokers off the table with hurkyl's, in that case arent the rats irrelevant on the board; Wouldnt just going for the tendrils win be the easy part as soon as you resolved a hurky'ls?

It just seems to me that a card that is supposed to act like a secondary win condition but is getting mostly shut down by a playset those decks are playing against you anyway doesnt seem like a good alternative win condition to me. Especially if the succes of the card then depends on you resolving a massive hate card that should win you the game anyway most of the time. Wouldnt those slots be better spend for more Hurky's density or mana?

Keep in mind, those are just some thoughts about the card, i dont want to talk it bad (i actually think its pretty cool tech) and it seems like my arguments are wrong since you are all reporting success with the card.

EDIT: I just got confirmation that my buddy has some rats lying around, i will ge to test it today at fnm tonight.

last edited by Aelien

@Evoclipse said:

@desolutionist so its just about going wide with your win conditions? In my head (again i didnt test i yet, but i plan to get my hands on some rats) the plan still seems pretty wonky.

That's part of it, yes. Otherwise, Pack Rat just wins the game in only a few turns and requires no spells to be cast.

If you have a rat out and they revoker it, even if you manage to still have CCB open to produce another rat you'll have 2 2/2s sitting there. i doubt the revoker will attack in and allow a trade. if you attack with 1 rat at a time and keep 1 for blocking the clock is still very slow and gives the shops or eldrazi player enough time to find bigger or more beasts with ease.

You attack with both Rats in this situation. If they trade with a Rat, it becomes unlocked. The scenarios involving Phyrexian Revoker require a bit of finesse to pilot through; however, consider the scenarios NOT involving Revoker... What do they do? Overall you're giving the Shop deck too much credit and disregarding the ability to bait out or discard Revokers. Consider the alternative: you can't cast your spells

In that scenario you also had at least BBCCC up (to cast rat and produce another) in most cases if i manage to ge to a mana count like that i much rather just cast an EoT hurkyl's thorugh the spheres instead and untap unbothered.

Or its 1B on turn 1, and 1B on turn 2. Or its BBBBB or BBBB on turn 1. Pack Rat's mana cost can be broken up over turns, thats why it's really good against Shops. You're honing in on a specific interaction with Phyrexian Revoker and ignoring the rest. What does Hurkyl's do against Thalia for example?

And Pack Rat is played in addition to 3-4 Hurkyl's, so you can cast Hurkyl's if you have it and then untap and cast Pack Rat and activate it.

Also you mentioned getting revokers off the table with hurkyl's, in that case arent the rats irrelevant on the board; Wouldnt just going for the tendrils win be the easy part as soon as you resolved a hurky'ls?

No because Pack Rat is a lot less demanding than Tendrils. If you're going to put your moxes on the table and fight through Wastelands, Thought-Knot Seers, and creature pressure, in most cases you're going to have to fire off the Hurkyl's before you're ready to combo. Casting Hurkyl's to get off a few Rat tokens is a lot easier and wins the game just the same.

It just seems to me that a card that is supposed to act like a secondary win condition but is getting mostly shut down by a playset those decks are playing against you anyway doesnt seem like a good alternative win condition to me. Especially if the succes of the card then depends on you resolving a massive hate card that should win you the game anyway most of the time.

Revoker is small potatoes. You're cutting cards that are bad against their entire deck for cards that are only weak to Revoker. Dack Fayden has the same problem. I play a Doom Blade and a Snuff Out in the board; a combination of things like that just help to put the Shops matchup away. And you still have Hurkyl's! It's just the same strategy, except there are Pack Rats to fill the voids.

Wouldnt those slots be better spend for more Hurky's density or mana?

There are already 3 Hurkyl's Recall! And one the main reasons to play Pack Rat is for Hatebears and Eldrazi, which Hurkyl's does nothing against! More mana is good, and I have that too... Pack Rat isn't being played over Hurkyl's or lands, it's being played in addition to because the 4 Hurkyl's, 2-4 land strategy just isn't good enough.

last edited by desolutionist

The first time I played a Pack Rat against a Shops player (a person who I've played a lot, and has cashed dailies and top eight'ed paper events), they didn't think enough of pack rat to revoker it and hit a sol ring or something instead. The second time they knew enough to respect the rat before I won with it.

I have since also managed to completely be blown out even on the rat plan, so it's by no means fool-proof, but it's better than just hoping you don't lose or hoping you draw that one restricted card that might help.

@desolutionist
Which Storm list are you favoring more now in today's meta? A more DPS shell w/ the rats in the board or the Bob/Pack Rat build you made?

@darkquarterer said:

@desolutionist
Which Storm list are you favoring more now in today's meta? A more DPS shell w/ the rats in the board or the Bob/Pack Rat build you made?

I've been playing an Esper Mentor deck. But since Shops/Eldrazi seems to be on the decline, I'd probably try a traditional version of DPS. I'd also consider sticking with maindeck Dark Confidants rather than the Draw7s. The Draw7s are not very good while Dark Confidant is great against Grixis Therapy. I would keep Pack Rat in the board unless something changes.

@desolutionist im curious why you dislike draw 7s against grixis

@snowydude said:

@desolutionist im curious why you dislike draw 7s against grixis

Because almost every deck in Vintage can exploit the effect of your Draw7. Being the one who paid the mana cost, you're already at a disadvantage.

While Draw7s are among the most obvious of Storm enablers, they're also strategically bad in Vintage. They literally lose you the game because the opponent can just untap and resolve Vault/key; you just drew them 7 cards.

They're not even symmetrical because you have to pay the mana cost. If you've successful controlled them with the discard spells so that the Draw7 can resolve, then the Draw7 is just a bad play at that point and you're better off just passing the turn.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist said:

@snowydude said:

@desolutionist im curious why you dislike draw 7s against grixis

Because almost every deck in Vintage can exploit the effect of your Draw7. Being the one who paid the mana cost, you're already at a disadvantage.

While Draw7s are among the most obvious of Storm enablers, they're also strategically bad in Vintage. They literally lose you the game because the opponent can just untap and resolve Vault/key; you just drew them 7 cards.

They're not even symmetrical because you have to pay the mana cost. If you've successful controlled them with the discard spells so that the Draw7 can resolve, then the Draw7 is just a bad play at that point and you're better off just passing the turn.

so your telling me you wouldn't keep a mox mox land wheel of fortune opener? with 3 other random cards obv.

@snowydude

No I would keep it, play it, and then proceed to lose.

I just don't play for coin flips, I play for deterministic victories.

You could turn 1 Wheel all day until you're blue in the face and come up with a 60% win rate and that isn't good enough IMO.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist
what do the odds have to be for you to take a die roll chance of victory? 60% to auto win a game is massive. if i could sit down and snap my fingers and win 6/10 games instantly and then the other 4 have to play out with me at a slight disadvantage i would take those odds all day.

@snowydude said:

@desolutionist
what do the odds have to be for you to take a die roll chance of victory? 60% to auto win a game is massive. if i could sit down and snap my fingers and win 6/10 games instantly and then the other 4 have to play out with me at a slight disadvantage i would take those odds all day.

If you're going to play in an 8 round tournament, then that sort of variance won't get you to top 8.

First you have to assemble turn 1 Draw7, which is a 20-30% chance? Then you have to draw well and your opponent is to draw poorly, which is a 10% chance? So on a really good day, if Draw7s win slightly more than half the time, you're still not top8ing.

So on the other hand, don't you think its possible to assemble a victory without giving your opponent extra cards or leaving it up to chance?

Have you ever Dark Petitioned for a Twister? If so, why and how often?

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist said:

If you're going to play in an 8 round tournament, then that sort of variance won't get you to top 8.

First you have to assemble turn 1 Draw7, which is a 20-30% chance? Then you have to draw well and your opponent is to draw poorly, which is a 10% chance? So on a really good day, if Draw7s win slightly more than half the time, you're still not top8ing.

So on the other hand, don't you think its possible to assemble a victory without giving your opponent extra cards or leaving it up to chance?

20-30% wow are the odds that high? and whats this opp has to draw poorly portion of the conversation? you can draw not poorly and just win on the spot. every 7 card hand storm draws is capable of killing with the mana just from a lotus and a single ritual. and you just drew 14 cards in a deck of 15 fast mana affects and 6ish tutors. on top of any redraws from probes/preordains/ponder you might get to sneak in on the left over mana its not unreasonable to see almost 20 cards in that turn. and at any point you draw lotus the game ends and you win. sure sometimes you brick and hit 4 lands 2 duress and a petal that isnt doing anything. but your opponent is playing a deck that wasn't designed to just discard a reasonable hand. its just as likely that they drew into complete garbage as much as you did.

its my opinion that draw 7s win significantly more than half the games they resolve in. this opinion is biased due to personal experience and local results. but its closer to 80% not turn 1 draws 7s but just in general casting a draw 7 has about an 80% chance of winning a game when it resolves.

also im not drawing my opponent extra cards im drawing them different cards. how often do you blind keep 7 cards without looking at them? you say that its leaving it up to luck but storm is designed to take advantage of the asymmetrical nature of a draw 7s more than any other deck... except maybe dredge

Going to have to agree with @desolutionist here. While draw7s are obviously powerful, the variance they bring is not conducive to getting a top 8 in a large event. When looking at smaller events, it becomes much easier to ignore the variance they bring, but deterministic paths to victory are infinitely preferable to trying your luck with a draw7. That being said, there are certainly ways to tilt it in your favor with cards such as Defense Grid.

I agree with @desolutionist about the draw seven effects, but I don't think that means you can't ever use them. I wrote in my article a few weeks ago that I think there's a good case to be made for playing something else instead, because the variance is just insane, and it will cost you games at times.

Playing on MTGO has this advantage where the shuffler is closer to completely random than human hands could ever hope to be. I can't tell you how many times I've resolved a draw seven and either bricked completely or flat out lost. And if you play a draw seven when your opponent has a mentor out, just hope you don't have to pass the turn.

I found myself only ever playing a draw seven as a last resort, most of the time they were dead draws that I'd be extremely hesitant to play. That doesn't mean I wouldn't ever want them though. There were a few cases where Wheel or Twister was the only card that could have saved me and it did in fact work out.

The other thing is that there are a lot more cheaper and free counters than there used to be, and these all make wheels worse.

Without Defense Grid, you could be wheeling into Missteps, Flusters, mindbreaks, and of course Forces. And if you wheel and don't get any discard or grids in your seven, well that really sucks.

The cards truly are unpredictable. I think the best one to keep in a list is twister, because in the corner case that you get your win condition discarded you could get it back, but wheel is much, much worse I think,

As was said before the two biggest problems with wheels are: If you miss and have to pass the turn or your opponent gets wheeled into a lot of interaction to stop you on your turn, it can just flat out lose you the game and most likely set you back a ton.
There is however one wheel that negates the having to pass problem: Memory Jar. With all the Wheel hating out there, why not pack Tinker/Jar into the deck instead of wheel of fortune (i still like twister a lot, because of the recovery if you end up with your win conditions in the yard)

The Problem here is that Jar on its own is a pretty mediore draw if you dont tinker into it.

last edited by Aelien

It felt like the Dark Petition package is enough on its own.

4 Dark Petition
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendril of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
1 Necropotence
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet

^thats just a really good core on its own.

@desolutionist so you would like to just leave out the draw 7s all together?
I would count Discard to the core, alsow ith 4x DP i like to play 2Cabal Rituals.

agree with the 2 cabal rits.

also if you go with the tinker for a jar plan you pretty much have to play a large robot which means you have to play time walk. some people dont like being forced to include a 4 card package like that. (not me i main all of these). there are some corner case tinker for lotus just for storm count or mana fixing

@desolutionist what are you conditions to be a core because that list seems random to me.

if i play the tinker package i play robot just in the sideboard. i like to keep the maindeck as streamlined as possible and only play tendrils as a win condition until that becomes a problem. However ive seen 2 Tendrils main, a robot main, or like the list from @Islandswamp Tendrils and Empty in the mainboard. its metagame and to some extend playsytyle dependend if you ask me.

Time walk in the main gets overlooked way to often, i think it is a lot of power for 2 mana, doesnt matter if you have something to attack or not.I like it as a recorery card if you failed to resolve a threat, i also like it for a cheap follow up to a bunch of discard spells and cleaning up the opponents hand. For more Timewalk talk check out the "Some Storm Tech" thread (these two threads seem to overlap).

The "core" is not easy to define. i wouldnt define it with cards but more with concepts:

  • Fast Mana
  • Discard/Interaction
  • Tutors
  • Cantrips/Card draw
  • Must counter threats
  • Finisher
last edited by Aelien
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