@Islandswamp said:

How often are you drawing Blightsteel in your hand and realizing Tinker is almost useless at that point? With no way to discard it and only Brainstorm to put it back or Ponder to try to shuffle it away before you draw it, it seems like a liability at times.

in an opening hand that can't do anything about it happens maybe 1/10 games. drawing it randomly on a turn so its in my hand maybe 1 in 6 or 7. i feel like that happens about 1 in 3 rounds. but i have many ways to discard it, all of the draw 7s, the LED the brainstorm, discarding it because necro overdraws it stil gets shuffled in because its replacement not trigger and on occasion i have therapy'd myself to put it back.so i rarely find it to actually be "dead" in my hand. every now and then i get to cast it for a trillion mana or off my minds desire but those are weird statistically anomalys. the number of games where i could not tinker my robot into play and i lost because of it is actual 0. it has not yet cost me a game. there have been 2 games wher ei had to tinker for jar because robot was in hand but i won those games anyway. results oriented 🙂 this is only a sample size of about 50 games or so in comp REL.

and yes it is very hard to find room for the tinker package. everytime i look at my list im always at 61 cards and cut 1 thing almost at random between chain of vapor, cabal rit, and other nonsence. so i completely understand not being able to squeeze them in.

sadistic sacrament? the 3 mana exile 3 cards from your opponents library? i guess that would work against any not me storm player as a win con. kind glad i play 4 wincons.

maybe im just really biased because of danny but i really just like having some elephants go around smashing all the artifacts in play more than trying to out mana the cost or play through with some rodents. that does require a 2nd mountain tho so i guess thats not a plan you can implement.

oh about the 12 lands thing. while i do run 1 less land than the norm i am playing 6 duals and the academy so i end up having more actual lands overall compared to 3 duals 2 basics and academy. i tried playing basics but island kept not being able to cast things and getting swamp felt weird when i wanted to cast 3ish blue spells in a turn. i actually fetch volcanic island more than badlands. also playing at least 1 of each of the duals let me have perfect mana no matter which grixis mox i draw.

im curious what kind of hands you keep though. you said when you mullagin for fast hands you tend to. when i say go off i dont nessacery mean you win every game on t1/2. i mean you cast a must counter spell at least once a turn. so a turn 1 necro counts as going off even tho you didnt win the game. a turn 2 tinker for a robot counts as going off even tho it might get swords. games go to several turns sometimes but that happens because my opponent had good interaction with me not because i always mull to something like triple dark rit lotus will dt. i also consider draw 7's with 3 fast mana sources strong enough to just play on turn 1. im not above going land mox sol ring wheel pass the turn.

@snowydude I don't have enough of the proper dual lands and fetches to support pulverize in my sideboard, otherwise I'd probably play it.

I keep hands with cards that I can play I guess... I don't know how else to describe it succinctly.

Snowydude: What 4 win-cons do you speak of? What percentage of game wins go to Tinker-Bot?
In terms of Pulverize, yeah, great card, but 2 mountains is nigh impossible. Also depends on meta, artifact decks have dropped off a bit percentage wise, with current Eldrazi builds being a current flavor. Hurkyl's, Rebuild are useful in multiple ways, where Pulverize is a nuke for primarily a single deck type.
Key for Storm has always been utility, i.e. a Swiss Army knife is preferable over a scalpel.

@Islandswamp Great post 🙂

Personally I have been trying 4 Thoughtseize main (with no Confidants side) as these help get rid of the first creature menace (TKS, Mentor...) your opponent can bring to the table so you get some extra turns.

last edited by PeAcH

@KirdApe
1 tendrils 1 robot 2 burning wish for the tendrils in the board.
tinker for robot has a very high win percentage of the games i go that route i think its close to 80% of the games. but i only go for a robot 1/5ish games. not counting the 100% of games i try to play him vs eldrazi/shops. going by the data since i started vintage i have had my robot defeated a total of 4 times, 1 of those games i ended up winning later with tendrils anyway because plowing the robot gave me enough life to not die to factory beats against a landstill deck.

compared to the artifacts in eldrazi the creatures aren't very relevant if your planning to go off which means pulverize does more. now if the creatures kill you before you get to cast that pulverize then yea there's gonna be problems but that's why we play cabal therapy so we can blind name thotnots on turn 1

i don't dislike hurkyls and i have't done any testing with rebuild so i cant give much opinion on it but it seems so expensive I can't bring myself to put it in the deck. i also very rarely take advantage of bouncing my own artifacts. personally play style i think more than anything.
I've always considered storm to be represented by the sai rather than a scalpel or swiss army knife. it is designed to kill quickly, efficiently and parry when necessary.

playing the pulverize in the board also enables access to it in game 1 via burning wish which has come in handy a couple of times.

last edited by Guest

I didnt test myself yet but i dont get how packrat is good against decks that commonly run 4 revokers. What do you do with your 2 mana 1/1 if it gets revoked? Or is the Revoker hitting anything else than a manasource positive enough to make it worth it?

@Evoclipse said:

I didnt test myself yet but i dont get how packrat is good against decks that commonly run 4 revokers. What do you do with your 2 mana 1/1 if it gets revoked? Or is the Revoker hitting anything else than a manasource positive enough to make it worth it?

The 1/1 trades with the 2/1 if nothing else...

The Pack Rat plan has to be strategically implemented; Gitaxian Probe and Therapy really helps this. If they have a Revoker in their hand, you want to wait until you can produce a second Rat (either cast or activated) so that one of your Rats can trade with the Revoker and still leave you with a Rat. Unless you know that you can get off a Hurkyl's Recall or Snuff Out; Pack Rat works in concert with the rest of the anti-Shops plan.

You're also right that if the opponent is focusing on Pack Rat, you're in good shape. The whole point is to have some cards that can be cast under spheres. If they have Spheres, Revokers on Rat, Lodestone Golem, and Thought-Knot Seers out then thats game and there's nothing you can do about it anyway.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist so its just about going wide with your win conditions? In my head (again i didnt test i yet, but i plan to get my hands on some rats) the plan still seems pretty wonky.
If you have a rat out and they revoker it, even if you manage to still have CCB open to produce another rat you'll have 2 2/2s sitting there. i doubt the revoker will attack in and allow a trade. if you attack with 1 rat at a time and keep 1 for blocking the clock is still very slow and gives the shops or eldrazi player enough time to find bigger or more beasts with ease. In that scenario you also had at least BBCCC up (to cast rat and produce another) in most cases if i manage to ge to a mana count like that i much rather just cast an EoT hurkyl's thorugh the spheres instead and untap unbothered.
Also you mentioned getting revokers off the table with hurkyl's, in that case arent the rats irrelevant on the board; Wouldnt just going for the tendrils win be the easy part as soon as you resolved a hurky'ls?

It just seems to me that a card that is supposed to act like a secondary win condition but is getting mostly shut down by a playset those decks are playing against you anyway doesnt seem like a good alternative win condition to me. Especially if the succes of the card then depends on you resolving a massive hate card that should win you the game anyway most of the time. Wouldnt those slots be better spend for more Hurky's density or mana?

Keep in mind, those are just some thoughts about the card, i dont want to talk it bad (i actually think its pretty cool tech) and it seems like my arguments are wrong since you are all reporting success with the card.

EDIT: I just got confirmation that my buddy has some rats lying around, i will ge to test it today at fnm tonight.

last edited by Aelien

@Evoclipse said:

@desolutionist so its just about going wide with your win conditions? In my head (again i didnt test i yet, but i plan to get my hands on some rats) the plan still seems pretty wonky.

That's part of it, yes. Otherwise, Pack Rat just wins the game in only a few turns and requires no spells to be cast.

If you have a rat out and they revoker it, even if you manage to still have CCB open to produce another rat you'll have 2 2/2s sitting there. i doubt the revoker will attack in and allow a trade. if you attack with 1 rat at a time and keep 1 for blocking the clock is still very slow and gives the shops or eldrazi player enough time to find bigger or more beasts with ease.

You attack with both Rats in this situation. If they trade with a Rat, it becomes unlocked. The scenarios involving Phyrexian Revoker require a bit of finesse to pilot through; however, consider the scenarios NOT involving Revoker... What do they do? Overall you're giving the Shop deck too much credit and disregarding the ability to bait out or discard Revokers. Consider the alternative: you can't cast your spells

In that scenario you also had at least BBCCC up (to cast rat and produce another) in most cases if i manage to ge to a mana count like that i much rather just cast an EoT hurkyl's thorugh the spheres instead and untap unbothered.

Or its 1B on turn 1, and 1B on turn 2. Or its BBBBB or BBBB on turn 1. Pack Rat's mana cost can be broken up over turns, thats why it's really good against Shops. You're honing in on a specific interaction with Phyrexian Revoker and ignoring the rest. What does Hurkyl's do against Thalia for example?

And Pack Rat is played in addition to 3-4 Hurkyl's, so you can cast Hurkyl's if you have it and then untap and cast Pack Rat and activate it.

Also you mentioned getting revokers off the table with hurkyl's, in that case arent the rats irrelevant on the board; Wouldnt just going for the tendrils win be the easy part as soon as you resolved a hurky'ls?

No because Pack Rat is a lot less demanding than Tendrils. If you're going to put your moxes on the table and fight through Wastelands, Thought-Knot Seers, and creature pressure, in most cases you're going to have to fire off the Hurkyl's before you're ready to combo. Casting Hurkyl's to get off a few Rat tokens is a lot easier and wins the game just the same.

It just seems to me that a card that is supposed to act like a secondary win condition but is getting mostly shut down by a playset those decks are playing against you anyway doesnt seem like a good alternative win condition to me. Especially if the succes of the card then depends on you resolving a massive hate card that should win you the game anyway most of the time.

Revoker is small potatoes. You're cutting cards that are bad against their entire deck for cards that are only weak to Revoker. Dack Fayden has the same problem. I play a Doom Blade and a Snuff Out in the board; a combination of things like that just help to put the Shops matchup away. And you still have Hurkyl's! It's just the same strategy, except there are Pack Rats to fill the voids.

Wouldnt those slots be better spend for more Hurky's density or mana?

There are already 3 Hurkyl's Recall! And one the main reasons to play Pack Rat is for Hatebears and Eldrazi, which Hurkyl's does nothing against! More mana is good, and I have that too... Pack Rat isn't being played over Hurkyl's or lands, it's being played in addition to because the 4 Hurkyl's, 2-4 land strategy just isn't good enough.

last edited by desolutionist

The first time I played a Pack Rat against a Shops player (a person who I've played a lot, and has cashed dailies and top eight'ed paper events), they didn't think enough of pack rat to revoker it and hit a sol ring or something instead. The second time they knew enough to respect the rat before I won with it.

I have since also managed to completely be blown out even on the rat plan, so it's by no means fool-proof, but it's better than just hoping you don't lose or hoping you draw that one restricted card that might help.

@desolutionist
Which Storm list are you favoring more now in today's meta? A more DPS shell w/ the rats in the board or the Bob/Pack Rat build you made?

@darkquarterer said:

@desolutionist
Which Storm list are you favoring more now in today's meta? A more DPS shell w/ the rats in the board or the Bob/Pack Rat build you made?

I've been playing an Esper Mentor deck. But since Shops/Eldrazi seems to be on the decline, I'd probably try a traditional version of DPS. I'd also consider sticking with maindeck Dark Confidants rather than the Draw7s. The Draw7s are not very good while Dark Confidant is great against Grixis Therapy. I would keep Pack Rat in the board unless something changes.

@desolutionist im curious why you dislike draw 7s against grixis

@snowydude said:

@desolutionist im curious why you dislike draw 7s against grixis

Because almost every deck in Vintage can exploit the effect of your Draw7. Being the one who paid the mana cost, you're already at a disadvantage.

While Draw7s are among the most obvious of Storm enablers, they're also strategically bad in Vintage. They literally lose you the game because the opponent can just untap and resolve Vault/key; you just drew them 7 cards.

They're not even symmetrical because you have to pay the mana cost. If you've successful controlled them with the discard spells so that the Draw7 can resolve, then the Draw7 is just a bad play at that point and you're better off just passing the turn.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist said:

@snowydude said:

@desolutionist im curious why you dislike draw 7s against grixis

Because almost every deck in Vintage can exploit the effect of your Draw7. Being the one who paid the mana cost, you're already at a disadvantage.

While Draw7s are among the most obvious of Storm enablers, they're also strategically bad in Vintage. They literally lose you the game because the opponent can just untap and resolve Vault/key; you just drew them 7 cards.

They're not even symmetrical because you have to pay the mana cost. If you've successful controlled them with the discard spells so that the Draw7 can resolve, then the Draw7 is just a bad play at that point and you're better off just passing the turn.

so your telling me you wouldn't keep a mox mox land wheel of fortune opener? with 3 other random cards obv.

@snowydude

No I would keep it, play it, and then proceed to lose.

I just don't play for coin flips, I play for deterministic victories.

You could turn 1 Wheel all day until you're blue in the face and come up with a 60% win rate and that isn't good enough IMO.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist
what do the odds have to be for you to take a die roll chance of victory? 60% to auto win a game is massive. if i could sit down and snap my fingers and win 6/10 games instantly and then the other 4 have to play out with me at a slight disadvantage i would take those odds all day.

@snowydude said:

@desolutionist
what do the odds have to be for you to take a die roll chance of victory? 60% to auto win a game is massive. if i could sit down and snap my fingers and win 6/10 games instantly and then the other 4 have to play out with me at a slight disadvantage i would take those odds all day.

If you're going to play in an 8 round tournament, then that sort of variance won't get you to top 8.

First you have to assemble turn 1 Draw7, which is a 20-30% chance? Then you have to draw well and your opponent is to draw poorly, which is a 10% chance? So on a really good day, if Draw7s win slightly more than half the time, you're still not top8ing.

So on the other hand, don't you think its possible to assemble a victory without giving your opponent extra cards or leaving it up to chance?

Have you ever Dark Petitioned for a Twister? If so, why and how often?

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist said:

If you're going to play in an 8 round tournament, then that sort of variance won't get you to top 8.

First you have to assemble turn 1 Draw7, which is a 20-30% chance? Then you have to draw well and your opponent is to draw poorly, which is a 10% chance? So on a really good day, if Draw7s win slightly more than half the time, you're still not top8ing.

So on the other hand, don't you think its possible to assemble a victory without giving your opponent extra cards or leaving it up to chance?

20-30% wow are the odds that high? and whats this opp has to draw poorly portion of the conversation? you can draw not poorly and just win on the spot. every 7 card hand storm draws is capable of killing with the mana just from a lotus and a single ritual. and you just drew 14 cards in a deck of 15 fast mana affects and 6ish tutors. on top of any redraws from probes/preordains/ponder you might get to sneak in on the left over mana its not unreasonable to see almost 20 cards in that turn. and at any point you draw lotus the game ends and you win. sure sometimes you brick and hit 4 lands 2 duress and a petal that isnt doing anything. but your opponent is playing a deck that wasn't designed to just discard a reasonable hand. its just as likely that they drew into complete garbage as much as you did.

its my opinion that draw 7s win significantly more than half the games they resolve in. this opinion is biased due to personal experience and local results. but its closer to 80% not turn 1 draws 7s but just in general casting a draw 7 has about an 80% chance of winning a game when it resolves.

also im not drawing my opponent extra cards im drawing them different cards. how often do you blind keep 7 cards without looking at them? you say that its leaving it up to luck but storm is designed to take advantage of the asymmetrical nature of a draw 7s more than any other deck... except maybe dredge

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