[SOI] Thing in the Ice
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@Brass-Man agreed, I'm excited for the new ideas this card brings out.
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I'm excited to test with it. Unless Gush gets restricted again. Then I'm less excited.
A lot of argument I hear is that it's simply not better than Pyromancer, which I think is true most of the time, but it shores up a lot of the bad match-ups that Pyromancer has, namely Dredge and Oath. Sometimes Mentor. It's definitely a sideboard card for the deck I want it in, really just for the instant-speed one-sided Evac. I guess the 7/8 bit doesn't hurt.
I'm anxious to see the shells other people develop for this card as well. I think it's got promise.
(FWIW, flip side should have had Islandwalk...)
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What I'm most excited about is this card can single-handedly return RUG Delver back to it's original slower, more grindy Tempo-Control deck like when I originally played the deck. Just swaping Tarmogoyf for Thing in The Ice in my 2012 list allows the deck to compete with the current decks in the format.
Standard RUG Delver couldn't compete with Mentor, and playing Young Pyromancer mirrors wasn't much fun either. This card has been stellar so far in clearing that gap.
Notice though that my testing is limited.
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@Soly this card also gives a lot of game for delver decks towards decks like ravager shops. It pretty hard for ravager shops to kill this thing without dismember. So even though rug delver is clearly decent vs shops because of its access to powerhouse cards like ancient grudge, now all delver style decks have a card to fight it with. I definitely agree that it slots right into rug delver.
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@Dayton the card definitey has value in most matchcups. Against oath your opponent still draws cards, but uslally theyre so low on life that their creature is just a 7/7 lifelinker, so it has marginal utility. Against shops you need to cast this AND 4 other spells; while leveraging your bolts and counters can get you there, you need to make sure to not flip it accidentally.
I DONT think this card is insane, but I think its a very solid creature that fills the spot that used to be Tarmogoyf.
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I've been testing this out in a Doomsday sideboard. It never won me a game I wasn't already winning. It's cute against Thalia.dec, but it's actually pretty opposed to Doomsday's strategy of sculpt and explode. There's also the issue that while nobody has removal in for critters, they still have their REBs and Pyroblasts.
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I think the card being not playable in Doomsday doesn't really add merit to this conversation, as Doomsday right now is incredibly fringe with how many workshop decks are floating around.
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I don't know that there is specific shell that I am excited about slotting this into, but I do think cards that reward you for playing vintage are good. I also think the casting cost 1+Colored mana is one that is really good in vintage. That is what leads me to believe this is playable. That being said, it might be too hard to find a deck that wants the effect.
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@Soly Really? I've been enjoying the aggro shops matchups. It was always Chalice that made the brown matchup rough since most of your deck is 1 cmc.
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I think Thing is mediocre, likely unplayable. The ceiling is high (?) but the floor is a 0/4. That's Time Vault level do nothing.
You can't spend your turn two on a card that does absolutely nothing until turn four or five.
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I mean its no tireless tracker, but...
Seriously though, very underrated. Will be big deal soon enough.
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@Ten-Ten I have been rather unimpressed with Thing so far. Sinking 3 spells into it and then getting it Swords is pretty bad, as is topdecking it in the late game and then not being able to chain enough spells together to flip. I wouldn't call it unplayable but Young Pyromancer and Monastery Mentor are just miles better in my opinion.
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@ChubbyRain True. What if Mentor and Pyromancer were restricted? Would Tarmo still be best?
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Anyone know how to look up the old forums, because I posted a pretty scathing (and in hindsight) near perfect review of this overrated piece of garbage.
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This card made me want to start brewing for Vintage.
I don't think it fits perfectly in established decks, but I definitely think there is a viable strategy that includes this card, it just requires the rest of the deck to conform to a few things.
One thing I think will define this card is the situational, strategic flip. If this card is in a control build, there will be immediate tension between countering an opponent's spells and choosing when to flip the Thing. In some ways, this gives a kind of tactical advantage to the opponent, who might choose to play out their non-creature business cards at a time where it would be unwise to clear the board.
I'm gonna test with a not-so-good Horror card from M15, Chasm Skulker... It's a traditional vertical gro creature, but it can grow pretty quickly with a number of draw-7s, cantrips, and Mystic Remora. It's also one more Horror to play off a Cavern, and, if nothing else, is bait for removal. Mystic Remora works to Thing's advantage as well, because it discourages your opponent from playing spells in the early game before it flips. I'm waiting for a few cards to show up in my mailbox, but I'll be testing something with Thing, Skulker, Snapcasters, draw-7s and Mystic Remora. Probably not going to do anything spectacular, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
I think people betting solely on Thing will be disappointed in its performance... But if you're playing the tempo/cantrip game while removing counters, getting your opponent to 1-for-1 a 0/4 Defender can't be the end of the world.
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I've been trying it in a bug control shell. Its been pretty mediocre so far. Even with having all the cantrips and gush it just doesnt flip fast enough to be relevant. And it has the awkward requirement of you wanting one to be unflipped to bounce your opponent's board when it matters, but if you do flip it early to attack it gets blanked really fast by a resolved mentor or pyromancer later. On the other hand cavern on Horror is awesome, and the Gitrog Monster is an amazing card when you have 5 waste/strip and crucible and its uncounterable.
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@Dumpsterac1d said:
This card made me want to start brewing for Vintage.
I don't think it fits perfectly in established decks, but I definitely think there is a viable strategy that includes this card, it just requires the rest of the deck to conform to a few things.
One thing I think will define this card is the situational, strategic flip. If this card is in a control build, there will be immediate tension between countering an opponent's spells and choosing when to flip the Thing. In some ways, this gives a kind of tactical advantage to the opponent, who might choose to play out their non-creature business cards at a time where it would be unwise to clear the board.
I'm gonna test with a not-so-good Horror card from M15, Chasm Skulker... It's a traditional vertical gro creature, but it can grow pretty quickly with a number of draw-7s, cantrips, and Mystic Remora. It's also one more Horror to play off a Cavern, and, if nothing else, is bait for removal. Mystic Remora works to Thing's advantage as well, because it discourages your opponent from playing spells in the early game before it flips. I'm waiting for a few cards to show up in my mailbox, but I'll be testing something with Thing, Skulker, Snapcasters, draw-7s and Mystic Remora. Probably not going to do anything spectacular, but it will be interesting to see what happens.
I think people betting solely on Thing will be disappointed in its performance... But if you're playing the tempo/cantrip game while removing counters, getting your opponent to 1-for-1 a 0/4 Defender can't be the end of the world.
I think Skulker is a red herring that seems like it will be a synergistic party, but will be an underperforming card in practice. Thing should be viewed almost entirely as a utility creature slotting into an otherwise creatureless control Time Vault/Key Deck or a Gush-Bond deck that also sports 1x Tendrils to finish the job. I'm surprised that no one has even posited either of these ideas. I, in fact, already have a list that I've been testing to decent results:
4 Thing in the Ice
3 Mystic Remora
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
3 Gush
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
2 Flusterstorm
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
3 Underground Sea
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Dig Through Time
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Polluted Delta
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Tundra
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 Aegis of the Gods
SB: 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Strip Mine
SB: 1 Wasteland
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Echoing TruthThing slots well into a Remora build because of its 2 cmc. That is the main attraction to running it. One can go turn 1 remora + mox, turn 2 land drop into Thing. This is a very common sequence that puts opposing Mentor players in a really tough spot. Now they are forced to only cast their Mentor or lose tempo advantage as turns go by, at which point you can likely flip Thing and wipe their board AND swing in for 7 that turn!
And, if they try to side into hate for Thing like infi plows you just play the Remora into Time Vault Key plan and blank their hate. Those are my thoughts for now, but this is a very rough list so there is clearly room for improvement.
-Storm
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@Stormanimagus The Timmy in me wants a huge Skulker/Awoken Horror swing after a board wipe. It's rarely gonna happen, so probably not the most competitive or successful strategy, but if Skulker is gonna see any play in Vintage (where we draw the most cards), it's with Thing and Remora.
How are you finding the tactical screwery with when to flip Thing? Do you try to flip it when it's best for you, or do you let it happen?
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@Dumpsterac1d said:
@Stormanimagus The Timmy in me wants a huge Skulker/Awoken Horror swing after a board wipe. It's rarely gonna happen, so probably not the most competitive or successful strategy, but if Skulker is gonna see any play in Vintage (where we draw the most cards), it's with Thing and Remora.
How are you finding the tactical screwery with when to flip Thing? Do you try to flip it when it's best for you, or do you let it happen?
I feel that the unoptional flip can be a problem at times, but more often than not you get to flip him at a decently advantageous time and and at the very least you're looking at a 7/8 creature with an empty board guaranteed for 1 turn.
-Storm
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@Stormanimagus In the deck you posted above, isn't it just better to jam a couple of Mentor in the deck over Thing in the Ice? You put the opponent under a much quicker clock...Not to mention many of the cards you are running don't actually trigger Thing in the Ice but would trigger Mentor: remora, moxen, vault/key, divining top. And in the situation you created, it seems bad when they just replay Mentor and a Mox, then proceed to block the 7/8 for the rest of the game.
