@ydl I like where your head is at, but Staff seems pretty slow (especially factoring in all the Thorn effects in this deck).

It doesn't draw cards, but maybe Master Decoy?!

. . . Nah, that's dumb. I dunno, I'll keep stewing.

It seems like there's been a recent trend towards slimming down this deck's manabase; if you look at the past 4 or 5 Eldrazi entries on MTGTop 8, everyone's seemingly cutting a few Wasteland effects for more creatures. I'd been assuming the 23-land configuration (i.e. maxed out on both mana and Wastelands) was set in stone, but seemingly that's not the case. Thoughts?

As a follow up to my last post, I went 5-0 at our recent Vintage event on White Eldrazi, playing the following manabase:

5 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Strip
3 Wasteland
4 Tomb
4 Temple
4 Cavern

So I feel like trimming a Wasteland is fine. I'm not sold on the idea of cutting any white mana (i.e. how Montolio moved the Karakas to the board), especially if you're gonna strain your Caverns by including Wingmare.

edit: clarifying that I play good cards.

last edited by Stuart

@stuart said in White Eldrazi:

As a follow up to my last post, I went 5-0 at our recent Vintage event on White Eldrazi, playing the following manabase:

5 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Strip
3 Waste
4 Tomb
4 Temple
4 Cavern

So I feel like trimming a Wasteland is fine. I'm not sold on the idea of cutting any white mana (i.e. how Montolio moved the Karakas to the board), especially if you're gonna strain your Caverns by including Wingmare.

Did you use 3x Wastes or 3x Wasteland?

@chronatog Whoops. 3 Wasteland. 3 Wastes is a bad idea.

@stuart said in White Eldrazi:

@chronatog Whoops. 3 Wasteland. 3 Wastes is a bad idea.

I see. On a separate note, one Wastes can be useful in some metagames, but in general it is more a puzzle-your-opponent-with-the-content-of-your-deck card :).

I_B_True just 5-0’d with this list, which is 4 cards off from the list I 5-0’d with last weekend.

Cheers to him, and I like his changes. In the main he’s turned 1 Revoker into a Metamorph, which somehow I’ve never considered. In the board he’s turned 1 Kataki, 1 Cage, and 1 Plow into 1 Crypt, 1 RIP, and 1 Trinisphere.

@stuart I really like metamorph addition! Going to have to try that out.

@bscheidemann I used to run metamorph here and there, was great as another way of dealing with robots and oath critters, or just to make another hasty fat man for a finisher. Never cut revoker though.

War Priest of Thune has show up in a few sideboards on mtgtop8 recently. It’s pretty cool/cute Oath hate, but can anyone here comment on their experiences with the card?

I keep wanting to try one in my board, but I’m feeling like between 3 Cage, 4 Plow, 2 Fragmentize, and 2 Null Rod I already have more than enough options, and that Smashers are the only maindeck cards that feel like obvious cuts in the matchup.

On a different note, how do you guys feel about the Paradoxical Mentor matchup? I’d kinda assumed it would be good, what with the Thorns and fast clock, but my buddy’s been consistently winning the matchup when we’re testing. Specifically, my problem’s been predicting which angle they’re gonna attack from (e.g. if I try to stop Key Vault, I get Tinker Blighsteeled).

last edited by Stuart

Hmm, not much action in the White Eldrazi thread. Oh well, onwards and upwards.

Travis Brown came in 2nd of 27 at our Vintage event this weekend, playing my list. I went 3-2 and came in 7th.

The list continues to feel good, but our meta is very blue. I'm trying to get prepped for SCGCon, and thinking I need to work on the deck's Shops matchup. To that end, last night I jammed 15 games against my buddy's Shops deck and won 4 of them. Yikes. My board was:

2 Kataki
1 Balance
4 Plow
2 Fragmentize
2 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Cage

I'm thinking the Balance becomes a Serenity, which is a little less broadly useful, but more devastating against Shops.

The Tormod's Crypt will probably also become another piece of Shops hate; I don't think the deck really needs more cards for Dredge. Right now I'm toying with Kill Switch or Ratchet Bomb, though those are obviously nonbos with the idea that Null Rod's one of the best things I can be doing.

Other options could be: Stony Silence, Palace Jailer, more spot removal (Path, Fragmentize, Seal of Cleansing, Disenchant, O Ring), Dust To Dust, Spyglass, Damping Sphere, Jitte, Coercive Portal, Ghost Quarter, Matter Reshaper, Endbringer, Metamorph, Horizon Canopy, Tower of the Magistrate, Ballista, Eiganjo Castle, Worship, and Wurmcoil. So there's a lot to think about!

I also think I can cut a 3rd Glowrider from the main for a 4th Wasteland. The deck should still be fine against Xerox etc, and having an extra Wasteland is obviously useful against both Shops and everything else.

@stuart Island Sanctuary would leave you exposed to only Ballista and Hangarback. With Null Rod (or Needle, Spyglass, or Linvala), you would have a full lock that their Revokers can't stop. Enlightened Tutors may help too.
Please don't misunderstand me that I'm recommending this approach - but only that I'm saying it's a possible solution.

@bazaarofbaghdad That's pretty interesting! Worship is essentially a pricier but better option, right? Under a Null Rod, it's basically a hard lock (give or take a few Dismembers ruining your day).

@stuart A couple of points. 1) While they'll side out Spheres against you game 2, once they realize your combo shenanigans, they'll likely bring them back game 3, so Worship may be a bit hard to stick. Even if it does, you have to be worried about a Ballista shooting spree, so that might not work. 2) I forgot in my earlier post, above, that in order to stop both Hangarback and Ballista, Needle or Spyglass alone won't cut it, as you have to prevent Ravager sac outlets also. So just Null Rod or Linvala or, instead, two of the others.

Did you notice any common themes in your losses to the Shops player? Understanding where the losses are coming from could be helpful in deciding which cards to use in the sideboard.

Cheers guys!

@BazaarOfBaghdad Fair point! That said, Shops leaving/bringing Sphere in against me isn't automatically the worst place for me to be. And yes, I'm absolutely going to be running Null Rods; I primarily proposed Spyglass because it's got some incidental value against Dredge, though the peek is also solid in tandem with my Revokers.

@revengeanceful My initial thoughts:

  1. I can't effectively mana denial them, when that's one of Eldrazi's strengths. Thorn effects aren't typically good. Likewise, while occasionally a Wasteland or Null Rod will get them, for the most part, if I Wasteland there's a decent risk there'll be another Workshop, Tomb, or Academy to follow up (or Inspector makes up for it).
  2. The go-wide plan of Ravager, Ballista, Hangarback, and Overseer is extremely hard for me to keep up with if I don't resolve an early Null Rod; on a vanilla level my creatures outclass theirs, but if they get to untap with Overseer, it gets out of hand. This is obviously an argument for including a 3rd Null Rod (or Stony Silence) in the board. This would also push me towards including more 2-for-1s or sweepers.

Another thought occurred to me: Damping Field. This is less powerful than Kill Switch, but much harder to answer. Also the art is just on point.

I am a little surprised you only won 4 matches out of 15. Should have been more like 5. 😜. If you listen to SMIP podcasts or if you read through the metagame details @ChubbyRain have provided, the White Eldrazi matchup vs Shops is awful. 33% is what I would expect.

The main issue is that you have to guess when sideboarding and with your opening hands. You have hands that have Null Rod and wasteland. They go tomb, Revoker Go. What do you do? They will puke out 3 more permanents with Inspector and Workshop turn 2. Nice Null Rod.

Or you get hands that STP and Kataki. They go ravager or ballista. Nice Kataki. What I am trying to say is that you have to guess what type of game you will be playing and you have to get lucky.

You need hands with Kataki AND Null Rod. Or, assuming you are on the play game 2, Thalia 2.0 is great. Actually it's almost impossible for them to beat.

One for one trading is not the way to win. Null Rod, serenity, balance, etc are ways to get ahead on cards. You have to assume whatever land you play will get wasted so you have to make an impact that will get multiple cards of theirs. I may start doing leagues again online with Eldrazi. But right now doesn't seem like the time to try to beat Shops. Unless you maindeck Kataki and Null Rod over priests and Revokers. We will see. Best of luck to you.

March had a sample size of 3 matches. I think larger samples sizes such as champs point to a win rate closer to 20-25%. At this point though, you are statically splitting hairs...The matchup against Shops is bad and likely the main reason WEldrazi isn't seeing play in metagames like the MTGO, where Shops is 30% of the meta.

Conceptually, the issue is that Shops has a much more consistent mana base and more synergistic and efficient creatures. Yeah, TKS and Smasher are pretty great creatures in a vacuum, but Shops can dump its hand of Inspectors, Walkers, Ballistas, Ravagers, and Overseers before the eldazi creature can cast their creatures. Measure such as Null Rod and Kataki can stop some of the synergy or punish the explosiveness, but they aren't one-sided effects in the matchup. Each one interferes with the WEldrazi manabase and makes it harder to cast TKS and Smasher. I also typically leave in Spheres against Eldrazi again because of issues with the mana base - the Spheres are pretty effective at keeping Eldrazi off its top end, especially since I expect Null Rods from the eldrazi player.

Not trying to dissuade anyone from innovating, but this is my 2 cents on the matchup from my play and data collection experience.

I really appreciate the feedback @ssasala and @ChubbyRain, and don't disagree with anything either of you said! Unfortunately, this is the only sanctioned deck I can play (don't own Bazaars, Shops, or blue power), so my options are a bit limited.

It's possible the correct solution is to write off the Shops match and focus elsewhere, but when the top tables at SCGCon are almost guaranteed to be Shops-heavy, I don't think that's an intelligent choice.

Given how lopsided the matchup is, my inclination is to run haymakers (e.g. Serenity). Of course, as I'm aware and y'all have mentioned, the manabase is garbage and you can't reliably cast white spells, which most haymakers are. If we're looking in colorless, I think that puts us at Ratchet Bomb, Kill Switch, and maybe Jitte, though those are obviously vulnerable to Revoker and Null Rod. As @ssasala has summed up, it feels like there's always a way my choices go wrong in this matchup.

Edit: hot off of buying a Damping Field today, I’ve got fields on the mind. What about Suppression Field? Keeps my moxen online while making all their dudes’ abilities significantly harder to go nuts with.

last edited by Stuart

@stuart suppression field is a very interesting card that sees some play in legacy D&T lists. It's obvious application there is to stop DRS activations and fetches.

I think it could find a home here as it:

  1. impedes blue decks via limiting fetch lands, planeswalkers and depending on flavour volt/key etc. Also especially makes landstill hurt due to their only (contemporary) win conditions being Jace and Factory.
  2. absolutely destroys bazaar, but could be too slow with limited acceleration with white.
  3. slows down shops in a way similar to null rod, however allows moxes to function. Also impedes wasteland and strip mine. So here it's relevant if shops is on mana limiting plan.

Ive been playing this card as a three-off main deck for about two months. I'd say that it really sures up already strong matchups and somewhat helps with shops.

Perhaps it's strongest point, unlike null rod for example is its interference with most matchups.

To eldrazi players it basically means removing the clunky displacer/preist "combo" (which I never found very good), limiting karakas vs oath (which with the move towards titan has already changed dramatically) and of course effecting our own wasteland plan.

Let me know if you decide playing it.


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