even though i didn't like displacer much, cutting TKS sounds like crazy, especially for a 3/2 vanilla creature 😕
no love regarding sanctum prelate?

@CwaM said in White Eldrazi:

even though i didn't like displacer much, cutting TKS sounds like crazy, especially for a 3/2 vanilla creature 😕

Why would I want to cut this card? What do I want from this slot? These are the questions I ask myself after I pick up a list to play.

This isn't directed at you solely, but sometimes I wonder what really drives people to play the cards they do. I suspect it has much less to do with individual testing, proper card evaluation, and more with observational analysis from a results oriented viewpoint. Now there's nothing wrong with utilizing this kind of analysis but it should be done within reason. Due to the power level of this format it's not outside the realm of possibility to assume that incorrect choices can often go unpunished. This is not to confirm that this is the absolute direction White Eldrazi has to take to move forward but, it would be nice to see individuals stop reshashing the same builds over and over and over.

last edited by Guest

@wappla nice job with your tweaking of the deck. However, I think you are creating a completely different deck. This is the White Eldrazi thread. You only have Reality Smashers left in the deck. Not quite enough to call this White Eldrazi. The ironic thing about leaving Smashers as your only Eldrazi card in this deck is that, to me, that should have been the first card just. TKS seems like it should be the first card in this list (technically Thalia 1.0 is first) then build the deck from there. The ratio of Thalia 2.0 and Eldrazi Displacer should be meta dependent.

I will have to try out a similar list to your White Weenie list you listed above soon.

@ssasala said in White Eldrazi:

The ironic thing about leaving Smashers as your only Eldrazi card in this deck is that, to me, that should have been the first card just. TKS seems like it should be the first card in this list (technically Thalia 1.0 is first) then build the deck from there. The ratio of Thalia 2.0 and Eldrazi Displacer should be meta dependent.

What is your reasoning for these assumptions?

I mean from my perspective, TKS is the reason to play the mana base that we do, if you are not going to play them why not just play a regular hate, or stompy deck? I don't know if the Ancient Tombs are still as good when you don't have TKS to power out on turn 2.

Also, why do you categorize the card as weak @wappla ? In my experience the best possible opening for the deck involve turn 1 thalia, turn 2 TKS or other thalia, turn 3 tks if i played other thalia turn 3. I don't think i have lost a game with either of those sequences unless literally every other card i drew was a land that didn't destroy my opponents lands.

@garbageaggro

Yeah but this list doesn't play the awful mana base. This version also has better sequencing and efficiency because of the curve. Better curve, better mana, better mana - more options, more options - more wins.

last edited by Guest

It looks like the same manabase to me plus 2 flagstones, I was already not playing the Eldrazi temples except in sideboard games for the mirror/against shops.

I mean to me it looks like it is a straight substitution of tool craft exemplar for tks, but you don't actually always have turn 1 white mana with this deck, compounded by the fact that you would have to name dwarf or artificer with your cavern which makes subsequent plays more awkward, I just don't see it.

Yes you are probably more likely to cast a turn 1 toolcraft rather than a turn 1 tks, but it doesn't disrupt the opponent at all. If you want that why not just play porcelain legionairre at least then it always has first strike.

Smuggler's copter also doesn't disrupt your opponent at all, and you seem like you are behind in the mirror because your creatures are smaller on average, and your opponent has access to displacer. I get that having more options with copter is good, but you are still playing a card that gets hit by your thorn effects and isn't necessarily hitting harder than your creatures, if you are going to do that why not play equipment (I see that you are playing stony silence) but stoneforge + equipment does a similar thing to copter, and let's you cheat the mana costs along the way.

Edit: That all aside I will attempt to put together your list, maybe there is something to copter that I am not seeing.

last edited by garbageaggro

Toolcraft isn't a turn one play, it's there to exploit the holes in the curve now that you have cut down on 3 and 4 drops. Deploying multiple threats is superior than investing in one. It's also a 3/2 Firststrike for 1 in the mirror. Displacer is a 3/3 for 3 with a marginal and expensive ability, the mirror has 4-6 ways to completely invalidate Displacer's activated ability.

last edited by Guest

I mean it is probably a first striker a smaller percentage of the time than you have activation mana for displacer. More importantly playing multiple threats is only better than 1 threat if the multiple threats do more than the 1, a 4/4 plus a thoughtseize is better than a 3/2 + many things in the deck.

I want to go back to something mentioned in the original post by @wappla and that is that this improves the worst matchup, in his eyes, mud, but I am asking at what cost. I think this makes combo a worse matchup and mentor/pyro a worse matchup.

last edited by garbageaggro

@socialite Reality Smasher reads: 5/5 dude that attacks. If you are playing Thalia's and Displacers, you should have been able to disrupt your opponent enough that Smasher shouldn't be needed. If you have 5 mana to cast Smasher then you are almost able blink opponents creatures twice.

My opinion. That's all. Flexibility with cards is great. Displacer does this. Smasher is just a big dude. In this list, a White Weenie deck needs a finisher. Smasher is perfect for that style of deck.

On the other side of the argument, I still play 2/3 Smashers in my list because it can still be good. In reference to TKS, it's a big dude but it does disrupt the opponent... just like every other card in White Eldrazi lists. Thalia, Null Rod, Displacer, TKS etc are all forms of disruption. TKS just happens to be bigger than most creatures.

I'm well aware what the text on these cards states. Let me know when you guys actually have a point to make.

@socialite Question was asked by you. Answered by me. I am not taking the bait.

Wasted posts like the one above is a problem.

last edited by ssasala

@ssasala said in White Eldrazi:

@socialite Question was asked by you. Answered by me. I am not taking the bait.

Wasted posts like the one above is a problem.

You're saying nothing, literally. It's not personal and I don't mean to offend you but literally nothing other than what any capable person could deduce from reading the cards.

last edited by Guest

My 2c on TKS: I'm just going to focus on the matchups where this is theoretically positioned as a 2-for-1 and tempo gain (v. Delver/Mentor etc.) rather than the other matchups where it's fairly obvious that the whole is less than the sum due to the opportunity cost of both the card and its slot in the curve.

When I am Delver v. Eldrazi I really don't fear TKS. Duress effects are good but, as I've learned the hard way, consistently overvalued by players (like past iterations of me, and maybe even present). It's not like a terrible effect for the Eldrazi player but it's at an awkward point on their curve and it's not really what they want to be doing. It doesn't synergize with taxing/Wasteland. As an isolated effect it's a tempo loss.

So really you're hoping that the attached body makes it a net tempo gain by closing the deal quickly. Theoretically sound, but awkward in practice: the impact of the body is very overrated.

  • It's supposed to close the game in ~2 turns while I'm reeling from losing a card and under pressure from multiple tax effects and bodies.
  • But really what happens is I buy time on the cheap by chump blocking twice with tokens. Maybe I continue to hit with a flipped Delver. Whatever, it's a tempo win for me, not you!
  • This often actually translates into a real advantage: e.g. 2 turns down the road my JVP finds Swords/Bolt/etc. to kill your Thalia that's been gating my Gush into an improved board position, since you spent the intervening time doing sweet FA.
  • When it doesn't work out like that, it's rare that TKS was the principal reason. It's usually Thalia being too fast too furious, often in combination with Revoker on Jace.

Anyways. I have no opinions on this current build having not tried it but I felt I should chime in on how I actually find playing against TKS in White Eldrazi.

@socialite Literally nothing? That's when you just don't post... like when you type it all out, read it over, then click discard... (Letting that sink in.)

Just want to point out from being on the receiving end of TKS. The duress effect can be extremely disruptive as it comes down before you have time to stabilize, takes your answer or bomb and then leaves you a lot less turns to topdeck something. the tempo gain is very real. Honestly i'm less concerned by a lot of cards than TKS when playing against the deck. The only bad thing I see for it, is what it does to the mana base of the deck and consistency issues. Without the eldrazi the deck is little more than Hatebears + thorns which has been legal for years and never competitive.

@Topical_Island said in White Eldrazi:

@socialite Literally nothing? That's when you just don't post... like when you type it all out, read it over, then click discard... (Letting that sink in.)

I don't know, Richard Shay and Steven Menendian both use quite a large sum of words to say very little on the frequent but they're hearalded as format titans. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that this type of cyclical argumentative discussion where not a whole lot of meat and potatoes is brought to the table is the norm.

I explained why I felt the creature swaps for this archetype is the right direction in post eighty six. Beside Ribby the only response I've gotten is people dictating what the text on TKS says, not why they think it's actually better suited or presented any sort of theroy as to why TKS is correct.

last edited by Guest

@ribby So I mean I agree that TKS isn't at it's best against pyromancer decks, but to be fair the 3/2 is likely worse right? I think the best card in that matchup is pretty clearly Jitte. I am still not understanding why the 3/2 is better for the deck against the whole meta. It clearly doesn't improve the pyromancer/delver matchup.

As for the why TKS is correct, it wouldn't be if you could keep playing things that affect the opponents ability to cast spells but if we look at waste/thalia/thorn/revoker a fair amount of the time as delay one turn from casting x. It is more common for us to run out of those delays before they die, and then they cast x and it turns around the game. Your contention is playing this 3/2 means that we get to the them dying part faster. My argument is delaying and then playing tks at the top means we get to take the card which would allow them to turn it around. All the delaying tactics are to set up to take away the card that can get them back in the game.

last edited by garbageaggro

@garbageaggro said in White Eldrazi:

@ribby So I mean I agree that TKS isn't at it's best against pyromancer decks, but to be fair the 3/2 is likely worse right? I think the best card in that matchup is pretty clearly Jitte. I am still not understanding why the 3/2 is better for the deck against the whole meta. It clearly doesn't improve the pyromancer/delver matchup.

When you play Smuggler's Copter and Toolcraft exemplar, you get options. You get to pick if you want to push in with a 3/2 Firststrike or free up other creatures, crew Copter and get in for 3 Flying which circumvents all of the creatures in the mirror and obviously bypasses the example given by Ribby. Defensively, within the context of Eldrazi vs Delver a 1/1 body still makes the important trades.


Cross posting this from a question Akash asked me about TKS vs Reality Smasher (it pretty much follows the reasoning Ribby presented).

"When TKS first started to pick up steam I struggled hard for a while. Everyone and their brother switched to STP to deal with the body. After an immense amount of testing I came to the conclusion that STP was wrong and despite common belief Lightning Bolt was still viable (the concept being that JVP's +1 let you fight on the axis of life as a resource - add that to the dynamic of Ancient Tomb vs Bolt and it becomes very clear that the better option is to race the body not remove it - they already got value when the ETB resolved). The reason I mention this is because I personally find TKS to be a supremely underwhelming card to the point where I felt most Workshop players were far too married to it. Reality Smasher is Lightning Bolt for Eldrazi, it's strictly a better threat than TKS when your primary plan is to race and race this version of Eldrazi does. I appreciate a lot of the nuances it adds to the list compared to Tidehollow Sculler (lol), for example the haste does a number on opponents ability to properly calculate across many lines - time they have to execute spells around tax effects, combat math, life as a resource, etc."


When 65% of the meta has creatures plus removal TKS isn't that great. When 35% of the meta is slamming robots and bears at each other without removal the 4/4 body looks a hell of a lot better, then there's argument to be had between the 4/4 and a 3/2 Firststrike and 3/3 Flying. But do the math and ask yourself what you'd rather plan for 65% or 35%.

last edited by Guest

@garbageaggro to be clear, I'm not contending anything about @wappla's list. I haven't tried it. I'm noting that the opportunity cost of TKS against certain builds I play is probably stupid high. It's not a fully formed argument because opportunity cost implies a substitute which I have not offered, but the archetype is not fully explored and I am pretty confident we can do better than TKS at some point because I recognize the pattern here: awkwardly positioned and awkwardly costed tactic that is taking too long to get priced out in Vintage.

@wappla has chosen a lower-curve approach that warrants testing.

  • 335
    Posts
  • 210680
    Views