@water0 I have played the deck a fair amount without Smasher and Temple, and while I think there are some matches where I don't want those cards, the matches where I want them the most are the toughest. Basically grixis pyro is what I am talking about, we need something that can run over the tokens, and can't just be chumped, and smashers give us that opportunity. Personally I am sideboarding the smasher and temples at the moment, but I think they are pretty good.

The build I'm currently testing.

I've been mostly happy with Recruiter in the games I've played so far; you can often tutor and play on the same turn. Eldrazi Displacer has been absolutely nuts in almost every game - someone tinkered up colossus, and I asked if he realised what that meant; I just tapped it and killed him. I even flickered a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy in response to the draw/discard and made it not flip. I'm sure I could go on and on, but that's not going to help.

The sideboard probably could use some fine tuning, so that's definitely a WIP. Stillmoon Cavalier is for the hatebears mirror match mostly.

I think I would test out Sanctum Prelate (probably in place of that Chalice and possibly more copies), but it's sadly not available on xmage which is where I usually play. If anyone can play paper, I think it's going to be better than Chalice in some spots. I had a game where I drew Chalice and wanted to say 5 (opponent appeared to be on Tezzerator and was), but obviously you can't do that. Cavern was already on Human to make it uncounterable too.

I think this (or something similar) might be the best "hatebears" build since you get to attack from several different angles. Massacre doesn't stop your Thorns, Displacers, or Thought-Knot Seers, artifact destruction barely hurts, and single target removal like Swords or Dismember aren't that hot. The only thing the deck is lacking is a way to get extra cards which you can kinda do with Displacer and Recruiter, but that's pretty slow. Maybe Bob could work his way into the deck somehow?

I couldn't make the mana work with prelate in my testing. I had to make the expensive cards to hard to cast to consistently have double white.

This is my current build, which I've been very happy with:

4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Containment Priest
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Reality Smasher
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Lodestone Golem

4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Chalice of the Void

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Plateau
4 Battlefield Forge
1 Karakas
1 Strip Mine

SB:
1 Containment Priest
2 Stony Silence
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
3 Flametongue Kavu
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Aegis of the Gods
2 Ingot Chewer

Sideboard is still a work in progess and stuff I try out.

I've also been working on a black/white version with Confidants maindeck and Shriekmaws sideboard, but I haven't tested it a lot. It doesn't have a high average CMC, but between the Confidants and the Tombs and Caves of Kolos the lifeloss have been an issue though.

last edited by JuzamJim

Have you been happy with spirit of the lab? I haven't found that to be super effective in my testing.

@garbageaggro I'm not sure if you were asking @JuzamJim, me, or anyone; but many opponents Force of Will Spirit immediately, so I figure it must be threatening enough. It doesn't do much unless your opponent is playing Gush/Preordains, but I feel like it's a good angle to have covered.

I just feel like i am either beating the deck running those without playing a fragile creature, or I am losing even if that guy is in play for a short time. The sphere effects keep them from casting a lot of the draw spells, but also make casting removal harder, and the big guys hit for more. I also sometimes have trouble casting spirit, since my first cavern is usually human and my 2nd one is usually eldrazi.

I don't think it is terrible, I just haven't been that impressed, and in a list as tight as this one on slots, I couldn't really justify playing.

@garbageaggro said:

I just feel like i am either beating the deck running those without playing a fragile creature, or I am losing even if that guy is in play for a short time. The sphere effects keep them from casting a lot of the draw spells, but also make casting removal harder, and the big guys hit for more. I also sometimes have trouble casting spirit, since my first cavern is usually human and my 2nd one is usually eldrazi.

I don't think it is terrible, I just haven't been that impressed, and in a list as tight as this one on slots, I couldn't really justify playing.

I must admit that I haven't tested it enough to draw any conclusions yet as it's a new thing I'm trying out, but I like that it attack the opponent from another angel. Also, it's a much better card if you're behind or in top deck mode. The mana hasn't really been an issue. I play 9 W sources + Cavern and I don't think I once has been in a situation where I couldn't cast it.

Two intelligent souls played White Eldrazi in the P9 yesterday, and neither of us lost outside the mirror until the semifinals. Our win-rate against the field was 85.7%. In the swiss we went 10-0 in matches, 20-4 in games. I went 6-1 against Gush, and 5-1 against Mentor.

White Eldrazi was also the best deck at NA champs. The 15 non-budget White Eldrazi players had a win rate against the field of 62.3%. This was obscured by the archetype being lumped in with the awful Jacodrazi, which 41 players registered, winning just 35.7% of their matches against the field. My 6-1 record against Gush yesterday isn't anomaly. At Champs, the deck was 76% against Gush in 25 total matches.

last edited by wappla

@wappla The deck continues to be a real threat in the meta today. Impressive numbers for the two players of this P9! Have you found a bad matchup or a matchup where you felt you were fighting against the tide?

Are the decklists up yet? Curious if you splash red or black or if mono white is still the best option. Nice job on finish

It's kind of like Shops except it has way better answers to Oath of Druids and Dredge. Deck gets my vote for causing me the most aggravation in the past year!

I really like two things @wappla deck list:
1- not playing 4 smasher which is only a (very though) beater
2-the mana source count which has been lowered

Are you not playing sol ring because you don't want to be missteped it?

@stsung thanks for the links.

It's amazing how the lists are similar and completely different. This is great for vintage. It means there is still innovation within the archetype and still avenues that need explored.

This deck is also borderline budget-to-cheaper side of vintage. Lotus is not necessary and you only need 1-4 moxen depending on the build.

I played a mono White list at EW Columbus to a 5-0-1 start to get derailed by Joe Brennan's perfectly metagamed control mentor list. The deck is strong and is the new "Hatebears" deck in vintage.

wouldn't call it innovation, more like just some tuning.

@CwaM exactly, cutting Sol Ring increases knowledge about the keepability of opening hands.

@ssasala Although some many people cut moxen at champs, the two players with full moxen, Kiesel and VanDyke, were the best performers. I can't justify playing less than full moxen in a deck that wants t1 Thorn or Thalia.

last edited by wappla

For people playing more than just white, have you seen the new spoiler for "Industrial Tower" ?

Industrial Tower
Land (rare)
T: Add {C} to your mana pool.
T, pay 1 life: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only when you control an artifact.

Seems like it might be relevant in addition to playing regular pain lands as effectively a tri-land for two colors and eldrazi.

I only played the deck twice, resulting in two totally different results (4-0 in swiss + win top8 and ... 2/2 in swiss)
Few things I was wondering were:

  • why people are not playing full moxen when you want to play a threat on turn 1? This deck is only playing 4 ancient tomb to cheat (and from 2 to 4 temples) so I cannot imagine myself not playing full moxen

  • do we really need that sol ring? If you have let's say plains + moxen + sol ring, I don't think you should go for the sol ring as if misstepped, it will cut you from a threat. I've been playing shop decks for so many years.... getting sol ring misstep was bad news but with so many sol-lands we could still going too fast for the other decks. This deck is playing...plains!! Hard time to go faster than the others with this kind of basics! ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • why people are playing 29-30 mana sources... This latest list runs 28 which is still a crazy lot...

  • why no horizon canopy/flagstones ? Sometimes you get flooded out and you would love to replace a plains with another card

I might be too used playing shops but I hate 1 mana lands ๐Ÿ˜‰

I know that my experience might not really be that valueable, I don't have any tournaments to back it up except local 4-0 and 3-1 with Boin's list.
Sol Ring is something I rather decided to cut, because usually the deck just simply wanted to play something on turn 1 and if possible not get it countered. I had (still have) Black Lotus in the deck which allows for some t1 TKS or something but usually when I had access to the card a better play was to play a Thorn and following turn I usually had the 4 mana I needed to cast the spell anyway. I lost more games to having Lotus and not a Mox than vice-versa. I run all five Moxen and would not play less. What number of sources is necessary is a question. I think that if the deck won't rely too much on the Eldrazi (Reality Smasher) it does not need to play that many sources, but it still wants to have access to 2 mana on turn one.

I also had Trinisphere in the deck instead of Chalice of the Void and noticed that I managed to win more games because of that Sphere than when I had the possibility to play Chalice.

This deck seemed to want an explosive start the same way Eldrazi wanted and without over 27 sources this deck just can't do that. But it is possible that one does not need that because it is more of a Prison deck than stompy. Sitting behind Thorns works as well and is usually safer than wondering if your opponent has the Force of Will or not. It's not like 1 TKS will certainly win the game.

I actually like Recruiter of the Guard in the deck and will have to try it. It may not be as crazy as in Legacy but being able to find a hatebear seems pretty good (or an additional creature).

I struggle with Shops but maybe I'm doing something wrong. ๐Ÿ˜•

What I wonder is why Boin likes Vryn Wingmare. I played that before but Thalia, Heretic Cathar often has similar effect since many decks run fetchlands and nonbasic lands but also affects creatures coming into play. The card has First Strike and is quite a beater unlike the Wingmare and can block Foundry Inspectors/Fleetwheel Cruiser and other creatures all day. The only downside I see is that Thalia is a legendary creature so you can't have two in play and it can be bounced with Karakas...

(time to try wappla's list instead)

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