Hey there folks,
I'm Roger, the winner of the Catalan Vintage Leage with White Eldrazi. I'll try to write some thoughts here in the next few days; I don't think I'll write a report, as I didn't take many notes. Just a couple of fast comments by now: Please forget about those SB Holy Lights, they make absolutely no sense (they should be replaced by some targeted removal, probably Swords to Plowshares). Other than that, I felt very comfortable with the decklist as I played it, I've played similar versions before Thorn got the axe last year and I feel very satisfied with it.
Feel free to ask any question in the meantime!
@grr Congrats on the win. I really liked playing White Eldrazi before the Thorn restriction. I'm looking forward to trying out your list.
Seems like you have a lot of tools against PO and blue decks in general. I'm wondering:
- If you've played against Ravager Shops and what you think of that matchup.
- Did you miss the maindeck Containment Priests? The last list I played had trimmed those to two and my feeling has been that we either want to stay at 3-4 (both for dredge/oath and to maximize the combo with Displacer) or cut them completely as without Displacer it just doesn't pull its weight vs. normal matchups.
- Did you have any problems with the white source count, especially for the Stony Silences? I've played Null Rods in the past but maybe that's wrong now with more Hurkyl's in the format.
- Did big Thalia pull its weight?
- I count 31 mana sources, which is 1-2 more than I'd expect. Do you think this is the right number? How do you feel about 2 Horizon Canopies?
@DrStreetmention : Thanks!
- I've played against a peculiar Ravager MUD version (with Traxos, Voltaic Servants, Forgemasters and Time Vault!) in Top 4 and I won easily, but that was because he was manascrewed in both games. I feel that we should be slightly favored anyway; maindeck Stony Silences and Big Thalia makes life difficult for them, and Displacer is a nightmare for his +1/+1 creatures (Ravager, Walker, Ballista and even Steel Overseer) even without maindeck Priests. I replaced Spheres, Thorn, Chalice and 1x Thalia GoT for 3 Kataki and 3 Containment Priest, but didn't see any of them in match 2.
- I didn't really miss maindeck Priests; there is almost no Oath in our meta (although this time 2 of my friends showed up with Show Oath) and exactly one Dredge player, so I preferred to focus in beating Paradoxical builds. And as I said earlier, against MUD, Displacer alone is good enough a lot of times.
- About the white sources: yes, this might be a problem. I lost Game 2 of the finals against Paradoxical Storm with Thalia GoT, Stony Slience and Kataki in hand and no white source. Anyway I prefer Stony Silence to Null Rod because is way too difficult to remove it (no Hurkyll's, Abrade, By Force nor Smelt). I'm considering replacing an off-color Mox for Lotus Petal to increase the white mana count, but I'm still not sold on it.
- Yes, Thalia HC is great. When you are on beatdown mode, the fact that opponent's creatures enters the battlefield tapped is invaluable. And it takes three full turns for them to actually get mana from the fetchlands. And is a 3/2 with First Strike, so even her numbers when we go aggro are huge.
- 31 sources is a lot of mana, but I'm playing Stonies, Spheres, Thorn and Thalias, so I don't wanna fall under my own taxing effects. Canopy would be a good idea to consider, but I feel comfortable with my 5 basic Plains (and sold my 2xFoil signed Canopies some time ago )
@Ten-Ten : The problem is that Holy Light cost 2W and I won't side out any of my taxing effects when playing against EtW/Pyros, so it will probably cost even more. And I want to be proactive, deploying threat after threat, so it will be difficult to hold 2W+ mana for Holy Light. So the idea is that the opponent won't be able to play so many tokens anyway.
EDIT to list my matches on the tournament:
- Round 1 lose (WLL) vs Jeskai Mentor, on the draw 1st game
- Round 2 win (WW) vs Leovold BUG, on the draw 1st game
- Round 3 win (WLW) vs Jeskai Mentor, on the draw 1st game
- Round 4 win (WW) vs Paradoxical Mentor, on the draw 1st game
- Round 5 ID vs Show Oath
- Top 8 win (WW) vs WUBG Beatdown, on the draw 1st game
- Top 4 win (WW) vs Traxos MUD, on the draw 1st game
- Final win (WLW) vs Paradoxical Storm, finally on the play 1st game
Total: 6-1 in matches, 13-4 in games.
@grr Thanks for the reply!
My mulligan strategy for this deck is that any hand without a white source has to be otherwise very strong in order to keep it. I've tried Lotus Petal before and it was ok but if I remember correctly I was less dependent on Null Rod/Stony Silence before Thorn was restricted. What I really want is exactly 1 (or occasionally 2) basic Plains in a game and that's it. But I really do want that one. I had experimented with Smuggler's Copter before for flying over board stalls as well as filtering but this version feels so reliant on Stony Silence that I don't think that's the right direction anymore.
I managed to play six matches with this list (with Swords subbed in for Holy Light) online last night. They were just Tournament Practice Room matches and there were some rogue-ish matchups but I did win all of them, so that's good. In a nutshell I beat:
- Oops All Spells
- Traxos Shops (with Tangle Wire and, I suspect Null Rod although I didn't see that)
- Jeskai Control
- a strange blue deck with Ancient Tomb, Mox Opal and Tinker
- 5-color Thieves
- Esper Outcome
Every match went to three games except vs. Shops. When this deck works and you resolve two or three disruptive permanents it's amazing and when they manage to deal with those and you draw all lands it just feels so bad and they vintage you.
Anyway, I really liked the Spheres, Stony Silence over Null Rod and cutting the maindeck Priests. I want to test more aginst Ravager Shops, especially.
I feel like anytime anyone says they are favored over Shops hasn't tested the matchup enough. Basic Plains are great in the matchup. I will have to do some testing with Spheres.
I think in preparation for EW I recommend putting Priests back in the 60. Dredge and Oath are inevitable matchups in sanctioned magic.
Nice job on the finish. Did you ever try Serenity in the sideboard?
@sovarius I hadn’t seen it before but it seemed like Grixis Thieves plus Mentor. He had Key/Vault and Tinker/Blightsteel and, at least after board, Balance. I don’t know what the green was for but at one point he had one of each blue dual plus Academy out.
@DrStreetmention yes, I tend to ship back any hand without any white sources, unless it is explosive enough (Turn 1 TKS, Spheres+Wastelands or the like). About Lotus Petal, I think I'll try it next tournament instead of Mox Sapphire: if we have Stony SIlence in play it will be as bad as any mox; but again, if we have Stony Silence, it means that we had white mana already.
About mulligans, I felt that I mulliganed a lot (8 times in 17 matches, one of them down to 5, though I won these). I'm not sure it that's inherent to the deck or if I was just unlucky with my opening seven. Sadly, I didn't track which hands didn't keep.
"They vintage you". I like it
@ssasala you're right, I haven't tested so much against Shops (I sleeved the deck and take it to the tournament without any testing TBH), and I was lucky in my Top 4 matches; probably if they start explosively we will have a bad time. I'm sure we can fight back, though, as we can also cripple their manabase with strip effects and Stony Silences and play big creatures, like they do.
About Priests in the SB, that was mainly a meta call; Catalan Vintage League is an endless ocean of blue decks (Jeskai and Paradoxical builds being a 60-70% of the field), so I felt Priests were not needed maindeck. If your meta is more healthy, maindeck Priests are great for sure (though I'm not sure what would I side out to make room for them).
I haven't tested Serenity yet; I don't feel comfortable with so many non-creature White cards (against Shops post-board, I like to play only lots of mana, as much creatures as possible and Stony Silences) . But if the next matches against MUD go bad, I'll try it for sure.
Hey there folks,
Top 8'd last Catalan Vintage League this last Saturday (which was also my birthday BTW ). We were 23 players this time. My list was the same one from last tournament, except for +1 Lotus Petal -1 Mox Sapphire main and +2 Swords to Plowshares -2 Holy Light side. The tournament went like this:
- Round 1: win vs Jeskai Mentor 2-1 (WLW, OTP game 1). We should have drawn this one, but my opponent made a huge mistake in his last turn when he FoWd his own Time Walk to make some tokens (he has 2 Pyromancers). I had Thalia HC in play, so tokens entered tapped, so in my last turn I swung for lethal.
- Round 2: lost vs PO Mentor 1-2 (WLL, OTP game 1). Game 1 was easy (CotV @ 1 + Thalia GoT + Sphere into fast concession). I couldn't pressure him enough game 2, and Game 3 I had to mulligan to 5, started with Lotus -> Temple -> TKS that was Forced and that was game. Variance happens.
- Round 3: win vs Jeskai Mentor 2-0 (WW, OTP game 1). Match with no history, I just drew best than him.
- Round 4: win vs White Eldrazi 2-1 (WLW, OTD game 1). My opponent tried to start game 1 with Lotus -> Plains -> TKS; when I told him he can't play Seer without colorless mana he passed the turn with no other play. In my turn I played Revoker naming Lotus and that was it. Game 2 he started too strong, and he got stuck on lands game 3.
- Round 5: ID and in
- Top 8: lost vs Jeskai Mentor 1-2 (LWL, OTP game 1). Same opponent that Round 1, this time with no mistakes; he made lots and lots and LOTS of tokens with his pyromancers and I couldn't stop him. Losing Game 1 (for the first time since I play this deck) hurts a lot!
Total: 3-2 in matches, 8-6 in games (9-3 and 21-10 in the two last tournaments).
Some random thoughts:
- I really liked Lotus Petal, it allowed me to play some Thalias or Stony Silences turn 1. Mox Sapphire will not make a comeback in the next tournaments!
- I had a lot of trouble dealing with Elemental tokens vs Jeskai Mentor. Ironically, Holy Light would have helped a lot there. I'm thinking about replacing Swords for Ratchet Bombs to deal with tokens, given that I side out Stony Silence against Jeskai. Balance would be another possibility there.
- I mulliganed a lot less that the previous tournament, but I've also drawn a lot worse and got brutally flooded in three or four matches. Maybe 31 mana sources are really too much; I can see myself playing 3 Eldrazi Temples instead of 4. I'm not really sure which card should I add in this case.
Thanks for reading and feel free to comment!
Eternal Central's got a full breakdown of the EW decks. I was curious about White Eldrazi, as @diophan and @ChubbyRain have it lumped together with Unpowered. Here's what I found:
- Unpowered Jacodrazi: 12
- Unpowered White: 5
- Powered White: 5
- Powered Colorless: 1
Does anyone who's better at math/less of an idiot than me wanna calculate win percentages for the various archetypes? I'd love to know how White Eldrazi did overall, but don't wanna attempt the numbers and post something incorrect.
(On a semi-related note, I went 6-4 and will have a tournament report up one of these days. The deck performed fine; I was happy with some of my choices while there are changes I'll be making. In short, though, I think White Eldrazi is a solid choice nowadays.)
*Edit: maybe spoke too soon. No White Eldrazi decks went better than 6-4, as far as I can see.
I played a pretty stock White Eldrazi list at EW. I ran into Shops 4 times and went 1-3. Overall I was 5-5. I beat Blue and Oath decks. I lost to Shops 3 times, survival once, and red stompy with 2nd turn blood moon both games.
White Eldrazi is a fine deck, but hopeless against Shops. I am not saying anything new or enlightening. This is almost my derpstep torch bearing. Can't beat Shops. Nothing new.
Survival is a bad matchup in my opinion. You need a revoker or Thalia 2.0 or wasteland. But Containment priests are great cards.
The White Eldrazi maindeck continues to solidify; recently, everyone’s been running Trinisphere and a singleton Null Rod. I have never been a huge Trinisphere fan in the deck (it’s the only real symmetrical lockpiece), and one Null Rod feels strange in a deck with no library manipulation. Anyone here have insight into why these are universal inclusions right now - is it strategic, or just one successful list that keeps getting copied?
UW Lavinia Eldrazi has recently been supplanting straight White Eldrazi. Does anyone here have experience playing with/against Lavinia Eldrazi? I’m curious how castable Lavinia and sideboard Energy Flux have been for people - does 4 Adarkar Wastes get the job done, or are some Tundras necessary? And does Lavinia bring enough to the table to justify making our already-shaky manabase even worse?
I wanted to play Eldrazi at Romancing The Stones yesterday, but I grabbed the wrong deckbox and went a nice 1-4 on Xerox. . Oh well.
I was pretty interested in trying out Lavinia. Unfortunately, in the 2 weeks leading up to the event, I didn't have time for any actual games. However, I still wanted to do some quick testing to see how castable Lavinia was in a list replacing 4 Plains with 4 Adarkar Wastes. After 100 goldfishing hands, here's what I found
- Lavinia was in my opener: 29 hands
- Castable Turn 1: 7 hands
- Castable Turn 2: 9 hands
- Castable Turn 3+: 13 hands
- Drew her on Turn 3+ and still couldn't cast: 8 hands
In other words, in 100 hands I drew Lavinia a total of 37 times, of which I had difficulty casting her 21 times. To me, that's really problematic for a deck that wants to make lock pieces every single turn. Of course, goldfishing doesn't mean all that much, but it was an interesting little test for me. Would love to hear how she's been for other people!
Discussion's kinda quiet around here, but it's a pretty interesting time in Eldraziland. In addition to the rise in Colorless Eldrazi, White Eldrazi pilots have been making some cool innovations. The one that jumps out to me: trimming Phyrexian Revoker. 6 months ago, I would have told you that that card will always be a 4-of until Shops gets it restricted. But now, we're not only seeing lists trimming down to 3 copies, we're seeing as few as 1 and 0 copies! I love it. Revoker's ability and CMC are obviously great, but I've had plenty of Hurkyl's blowouts when my board is overly reliant on Revoker. It seems like Eldrazi pilots are realizing that their best shot in the meta is to simply sidestep all the hate targeted at Shops.
Hey there Stuart,
Glad to talk about this here, I was answering you in twitter but I hate texting on my cell phone . I'd like to share some thoughts:
As I told you earlier, trimming Revokers is mainly a meta call. Revokers are good for nullifying Planeswalkers and nasty artifact creatures like Ravagers and Ballistas, but they are too fragile against artifact removal. Right now I prefer Glowriders over Revokers: with 4 Glowriders, 3 Thalia GoT, 1 Thorn and 1 Trinisphere (and our clock), we try to tax enough the opponent to make him really difficult to cast his PWs anyway. Also, in the late months I'm struggling to beat Jeskai Pyromancer builds, so I prefer Glowriders over Revokers.
I have to admit I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with Workshop decks; it seems that 3 Kataki and 3 Suppression Field in the SB are not enough (I'm also siding in Ratchet Bombs, although they nonbo with SField; I side out CotV, Thorn, 3sphere, 2 Thalia GoT and 3 Glowriders). I'm not sure if there is just variance or if I should really try to improve the match up.
About Suppression Field, I think it's a sweet tech against Shops and Survival, but I played against both decks last tournament and I never drew it (I won vs Survival anyway thanks to him flooding in both games).
All in all, there's a thing I dislike about my build: I'm playing way too many mana sources, I just don't see what to cut. I desperately need colorless mana AND white mana, and off-color moxes are also necessary to help me to get some big play first turn (from Thalia GoT to Reality Smasher). But 31 sources are a lot, and is usual finding opening hands with 5-6 sources that I have to mulligan. Thoughts?
One last thing: I'm not even able to think how Vintage will be affected with the new London mulligan (I truly hope it will not be implemented). Do you think White Eldrazi will be better or worse?
Thanks for reading!