Cheers to him, and I like his changes. In the main he’s turned 1 Revoker into a Metamorph, which somehow I’ve never considered. In the board he’s turned 1 Kataki, 1 Cage, and 1 Plow into 1 Crypt, 1 RIP, and 1 Trinisphere.
War Priest of Thune has show up in a few sideboards on mtgtop8 recently. It’s pretty cool/cute Oath hate, but can anyone here comment on their experiences with the card?
I keep wanting to try one in my board, but I’m feeling like between 3 Cage, 4 Plow, 2 Fragmentize, and 2 Null Rod I already have more than enough options, and that Smashers are the only maindeck cards that feel like obvious cuts in the matchup.
On a different note, how do you guys feel about the Paradoxical Mentor matchup? I’d kinda assumed it would be good, what with the Thorns and fast clock, but my buddy’s been consistently winning the matchup when we’re testing. Specifically, my problem’s been predicting which angle they’re gonna attack from (e.g. if I try to stop Key Vault, I get Tinker Blighsteeled).
Hmm, not much action in the White Eldrazi thread. Oh well, onwards and upwards.
Travis Brown came in 2nd of 27 at our Vintage event this weekend, playing my list. I went 3-2 and came in 7th.
The list continues to feel good, but our meta is very blue. I'm trying to get prepped for SCGCon, and thinking I need to work on the deck's Shops matchup. To that end, last night I jammed 15 games against my buddy's Shops deck and won 4 of them. Yikes. My board was:
2 Null Rod
1 Tormod's Crypt
I'm thinking the Balance becomes a Serenity, which is a little less broadly useful, but more devastating against Shops.
The Tormod's Crypt will probably also become another piece of Shops hate; I don't think the deck really needs more cards for Dredge. Right now I'm toying with Kill Switch or Ratchet Bomb, though those are obviously nonbos with the idea that Null Rod's one of the best things I can be doing.
Other options could be: Stony Silence, Palace Jailer, more spot removal (Path, Fragmentize, Seal of Cleansing, Disenchant, O Ring), Dust To Dust, Spyglass, Damping Sphere, Jitte, Coercive Portal, Ghost Quarter, Matter Reshaper, Endbringer, Metamorph, Horizon Canopy, Tower of the Magistrate, Ballista, Eiganjo Castle, Worship, and Wurmcoil. So there's a lot to think about!
I also think I can cut a 3rd Glowrider from the main for a 4th Wasteland. The deck should still be fine against Xerox etc, and having an extra Wasteland is obviously useful against both Shops and everything else.
@stuart Island Sanctuary would leave you exposed to only Ballista and Hangarback. With Null Rod (or Needle, Spyglass, or Linvala), you would have a full lock that their Revokers can't stop. Enlightened Tutors may help too.
Please don't misunderstand me that I'm recommending this approach - but only that I'm saying it's a possible solution.
@stuart A couple of points. 1) While they'll side out Spheres against you game 2, once they realize your combo shenanigans, they'll likely bring them back game 3, so Worship may be a bit hard to stick. Even if it does, you have to be worried about a Ballista shooting spree, so that might not work. 2) I forgot in my earlier post, above, that in order to stop both Hangarback and Ballista, Needle or Spyglass alone won't cut it, as you have to prevent Ravager sac outlets also. So just Null Rod or Linvala or, instead, two of the others.
@BazaarOfBaghdad Fair point! That said, Shops leaving/bringing Sphere in against me isn't automatically the worst place for me to be. And yes, I'm absolutely going to be running Null Rods; I primarily proposed Spyglass because it's got some incidental value against Dredge, though the peek is also solid in tandem with my Revokers.
@revengeanceful My initial thoughts:
- I can't effectively mana denial them, when that's one of Eldrazi's strengths. Thorn effects aren't typically good. Likewise, while occasionally a Wasteland or Null Rod will get them, for the most part, if I Wasteland there's a decent risk there'll be another Workshop, Tomb, or Academy to follow up (or Inspector makes up for it).
- The go-wide plan of Ravager, Ballista, Hangarback, and Overseer is extremely hard for me to keep up with if I don't resolve an early Null Rod; on a vanilla level my creatures outclass theirs, but if they get to untap with Overseer, it gets out of hand. This is obviously an argument for including a 3rd Null Rod (or Stony Silence) in the board. This would also push me towards including more 2-for-1s or sweepers.
Another thought occurred to me: Damping Field. This is less powerful than Kill Switch, but much harder to answer. Also the art is just on point.
I am a little surprised you only won 4 matches out of 15. Should have been more like 5. . If you listen to SMIP podcasts or if you read through the metagame details @ChubbyRain have provided, the White Eldrazi matchup vs Shops is awful. 33% is what I would expect.
The main issue is that you have to guess when sideboarding and with your opening hands. You have hands that have Null Rod and wasteland. They go tomb, Revoker Go. What do you do? They will puke out 3 more permanents with Inspector and Workshop turn 2. Nice Null Rod.
Or you get hands that STP and Kataki. They go ravager or ballista. Nice Kataki. What I am trying to say is that you have to guess what type of game you will be playing and you have to get lucky.
You need hands with Kataki AND Null Rod. Or, assuming you are on the play game 2, Thalia 2.0 is great. Actually it's almost impossible for them to beat.
One for one trading is not the way to win. Null Rod, serenity, balance, etc are ways to get ahead on cards. You have to assume whatever land you play will get wasted so you have to make an impact that will get multiple cards of theirs. I may start doing leagues again online with Eldrazi. But right now doesn't seem like the time to try to beat Shops. Unless you maindeck Kataki and Null Rod over priests and Revokers. We will see. Best of luck to you.
March had a sample size of 3 matches. I think larger samples sizes such as champs point to a win rate closer to 20-25%. At this point though, you are statically splitting hairs...The matchup against Shops is bad and likely the main reason WEldrazi isn't seeing play in metagames like the MTGO, where Shops is 30% of the meta.
Conceptually, the issue is that Shops has a much more consistent mana base and more synergistic and efficient creatures. Yeah, TKS and Smasher are pretty great creatures in a vacuum, but Shops can dump its hand of Inspectors, Walkers, Ballistas, Ravagers, and Overseers before the eldazi creature can cast their creatures. Measure such as Null Rod and Kataki can stop some of the synergy or punish the explosiveness, but they aren't one-sided effects in the matchup. Each one interferes with the WEldrazi manabase and makes it harder to cast TKS and Smasher. I also typically leave in Spheres against Eldrazi again because of issues with the mana base - the Spheres are pretty effective at keeping Eldrazi off its top end, especially since I expect Null Rods from the eldrazi player.
Not trying to dissuade anyone from innovating, but this is my 2 cents on the matchup from my play and data collection experience.
I really appreciate the feedback @ssasala and @ChubbyRain, and don't disagree with anything either of you said! Unfortunately, this is the only sanctioned deck I can play (don't own Bazaars, Shops, or blue power), so my options are a bit limited.
It's possible the correct solution is to write off the Shops match and focus elsewhere, but when the top tables at SCGCon are almost guaranteed to be Shops-heavy, I don't think that's an intelligent choice.
Given how lopsided the matchup is, my inclination is to run haymakers (e.g. Serenity). Of course, as I'm aware and y'all have mentioned, the manabase is garbage and you can't reliably cast white spells, which most haymakers are. If we're looking in colorless, I think that puts us at Ratchet Bomb, Kill Switch, and maybe Jitte, though those are obviously vulnerable to Revoker and Null Rod. As @ssasala has summed up, it feels like there's always a way my choices go wrong in this matchup.
Edit: hot off of buying a Damping Field today, I’ve got fields on the mind. What about Suppression Field? Keeps my moxen online while making all their dudes’ abilities significantly harder to go nuts with.
@stuart suppression field is a very interesting card that sees some play in legacy D&T lists. It's obvious application there is to stop DRS activations and fetches.
I think it could find a home here as it:
- impedes blue decks via limiting fetch lands, planeswalkers and depending on flavour volt/key etc. Also especially makes landstill hurt due to their only (contemporary) win conditions being Jace and Factory.
- absolutely destroys bazaar, but could be too slow with limited acceleration with white.
- slows down shops in a way similar to null rod, however allows moxes to function. Also impedes wasteland and strip mine. So here it's relevant if shops is on mana limiting plan.
Ive been playing this card as a three-off main deck for about two months. I'd say that it really sures up already strong matchups and somewhat helps with shops.
Perhaps it's strongest point, unlike null rod for example is its interference with most matchups.
To eldrazi players it basically means removing the clunky displacer/preist "combo" (which I never found very good), limiting karakas vs oath (which with the move towards titan has already changed dramatically) and of course effecting our own wasteland plan.
Let me know if you decide playing it.
@nba84 Suppression Field looks like a pretty interesting addition. Would you care to post your list? I'd be interested to see how you integrate it.
Played another 5 Shops matches tonight and won 2, so we’re getting better! . . . It’s obviously still rough, but Big Thalia has been the MVP thus far. Seems like the trick is to quickly land her and one other solid piece of interaction, like Null Rod or Wasteland. That tempo can be just enough to get you there.
Kataki and Serenity both did some nice work the one time they turned up; I’m more and more convinced I want the 2nd Serenity. Unfortunately there aren’t any Japanese copies on any major vendors’ sites
@chubbyrain I went 0-2 versus Shops. No surprise. Shops were the bookends to the Challenge. Round 1 game 1 was um... Vintage. By turn 2 he had 3 Foundry Inspectors AND no Shops in play. Ridiculous. Game 2 was 7 permanents in play on his first turn. That's fine. Took a deep breathe and regrouped knowing that can happen in Vintage.
Playing against @hierarchnoble in the last round was tough, close, and lucky on both sides. I didn't know what Mike was playing and happened to have Mox pearl and tomb and Thalia 2.0 in my opener. I do not win game 1 without a hand like that against Shops.
If I remember correctly Mike had 7 permanents in play for game 2 before i got a turn. I kept a hand with 2 plains, temple, cavern, Thalia 2.0, spyglass and serenity. Definitely a keep. I just needed to figure out how to leverage it correctly against a ridiculous start. Facing double ravager and steel overseer turn 1 on the play was tough. I draw tomb and name overseer with spyglass knowing that I am trying to land serenity. Naming ravager doesn't stop modular when they hit the bin in 2 turns. I was trying to safe life points till then. My only fear was Factory to have a landing spot for modular. Mike got aggressive by sacing his excess moxen with ravager for the beats. I land serenity. He lands Factory. I chump block for a few turns without drawing wasteland or STP. Close game.
Last game, last match of the tourney I had Null Rod, basic plains, TKS, and tomb plus others to start. First turn Null Rod go. Shop then spyglass on Displacer was mikes turn. (I had decided Displacer was most difficult card to play mana-wise in the deck. I only had 1 in the 75) I draw spyglass and avoid getting wastelanded out of the game. Hangarback go from Mike. I drew balance. I thought long and hard about my next play. Hangarback on the battlefield with equal land count and equal card count didn't make for a good balancing act at that time. I TKS mikes only threat in ballista and pass. Wasteland from Mike, pass. I felt pretty good. I draw tomb and copy TKS with metamorph exiling a blank. Felt pretty good at that point still. Balance in hand if things got out of control. Mike liked my metamorph idea so much he copied it and with his own TKS and took my balance. Ok. Good card off the top. We trade TKS next turn. I have 2 Thalia 1.0 is hand. Not great. Inspector pass from Mike. TKS from me. Continue to beat down. Got rid of his hangarback for 2 thopters. I exiled another ballista and pass. Felt I was in the drivers seat. Then I saw all Mikes mana tap and that feeling went away. Hangarback for 5. Go. I drew Smasher. I was deflated by the hangarback tbh. Kind of a bad beat. I then had the outside world stuff kick in and was fatigued and ready to go on with my day. I took a risky line of alpha striking with everything with hope I drew another Smasher or serenity. I didn't. Game over with Mike at 2 life.
So, I felt that each game was close. Mike played extremely well. the entire time playing against Shops I feel like I am just waiting to get smashed by a 5 or 6 drop that I can't deal with. I had more TKS than I would expect on average so that was in my favor. Maybe I missed Displacer?? I don't know. It's usually the only thing to name with Revoker so I was next leveling maybe? Would I rather have a 3/3 with no text or a spirit of the labyrinth against the rest of the field? I went with David Bowie this time around. I mean if balance was Displacer I win that last game. In the end 0-2 versus Shops. Status quo. I did lose the die roll round 1. Completely changed that game. And winning the die roll against Mike landed me a turn 1 Thalia 2.0. I don't win that game on the draw.
I think my biggest take away from the tourney was getting damping sphered round 2. That card is hilarious. It just needs a home and will cause a ton of judge calls and card counting and storm counting and crazy non-sense. I actually flashed in a containment priest in a guys/gals upkeep to prevent him/her from playing multiple spells in his/her own turn. Good stuff