White Eldrazi
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So there's two threads talking about how to beat White Eldrazi, but no thread talking about how to play it. I don't claim to have mastered the deck yet, but I can share my experiences.
A few Eldrazi dcks have been coming into popularity recently. Even among the white versions, there are two builds that have gotten results - one with Eldrazi Mimics, Endless Ones and Eye of Ugin, and another with Phyrexian Revokers, Wastelands, and Wingmares. I more disruptive list looked stronger to me, based on experiences with Mimic and Endless one in non-white Eldrazi lists. I'm certainly up for discussion on which build is better in which matchups.
I played a list almost identical to the one played by
Mr. RandomandBlackLotusT1in the P9 Challenge last weekend.For Reference:
I went 6-0-2 in the swiss (highest standing) and lost in the quarters to Mentor. My matchups and the sideboarding I used in the event were the following:
Round 1 and 2 - Belcher:
-3 Containment Priest
-1 Eldrazi Displacer
+2 Aegis of the Gods
+2 Disenchantunfortunately my anti-combo sideboard cards were focused on combatting DPS and not Belcher. Disenchant is not ideal here, but it's it better than Priest and it did win me at least one game.
Round 3 and Quarterfinals - Esper Mentor:
-2 Containment Priest
-1 Eldrazi Displacer
+1 Dismember
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Umezawa's JitteI'm unclear on these numbers, removal is good but not amazing, Jitte is okay but unsure if it's better than the Displacer/Priest interaction
Round 4 - White Eldrazi (Mirror):
-4 Thorn of Amethyst
-1 Chalice of the Void
+1 Dismember
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Umezawa's JitteThis plan was straightforward and satisfactory, as long as white Eldrazi isn't a big enough part of the metagame to require dedicated sideboard space
Round 5 - Vault/Key:
Vault/Key(No Changes)
I didn't get to see much of the deck game one, and I don't completely remember my sideboarding here. It's possible it's correct to board in Disenchants, but I wasn't happy with anything to cut (under the assumption that my opponent had Tinker). Maybe I would try -2 Displacer
Round 6 - Grixis Pyromancer:
-3 Containment Priest
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Dismember
+1 Umezawa's Jitteactive Jitte is stronger here than against Mentor, but I knew my opponent had Ingot Chewers and Dack Faydens and I didn't want to rely too heavily on it.
Matchups I had planned for but didn't get paired against:
DPS:
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Aegis of the Gods
-1 Containment Priest
-3 Eldrazi DisplacerOath:
+2 Aegis of the Gods
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+1 Containment Priest
-4 Phyrexian Revoker
-2 Vrynn Wingmare
-1 Mana Source (unsure)Dredge:
+1 Containment Priest
+2 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Rest in Peace
-1 Chalice of the Void
-1 Lodestone Golem
-2 Eldrazi Displacer
-2 Vryn WingmareShops:
+1 Dismember
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Disenchant
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
-4 Thorn of Amethyst
-1 Chalice of the Void
-2 Containment Priest or Vryn WingmareI don't have a great handle on which matchups are good or bad for White Eldrazi yet, or even which cards ... but I think it's a very solid deck choice in the current metagame.
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Congrats on the strong finish and thanks for the detailed sideboarding guide.
I've done some testing against almost this exact list with a white weenie deck similar to what Paul Rietzl was running in the VSL. The biggest change was adding Revokers and Aven Mindcensors for the Arbiters and Canonists.
I play Death and Taxes in Legacy, and Stoneforge/Wasteland decks are strong against Eldrazi there. This translated reasonably well to Vintage. You've probably seen that these sorts of decks lead to a lot of stalled board states - flyers are strong as a result (especially suited up with a Jitte).
The biggest problem I faced was finding an efficient way to deal with the Smashers - in Legacy you have stuff like Mangara and Fiend Hunter (or even sweepers like Cataclysm). You can't afford to run these sorts of cards in Vintage, though, obviously. If you can get enough mana to suit a dude up with Batterskull you're all set. But these Vintage Eldrazi decks run Wasteland, whereas you don't see that much in Legacy versions.
I really thought Stoneforge was the way to go, but in the end I find myself leaning towards just jamming a couple Wurmcoils in the sideboard of Ravager Shops and calling it a day.
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A few questions looking over the list:
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Do you find 3 thalia's is 1 too many? How often is 1 on the board and you draw dead picking up a second one?
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Only 4 mox? Any particular reason you cut sapphire?
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I've been playing a nearly identical list and it's been very good for me so far. I had experimented with Mindcensors in the Wingmare slot but I think Wingmare may be better. I want to fit a couple of Spirit of the Labyrinth somewhere but that might be overkill on the blue hate. My biggest issue with the deck so far is playing against Shops. I skimped on Shops hate and Tangle Wire, Wasteland, and Null Rod are tough. Our Thorn + Thalia disruption isn't too effective against them.
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Stormanimagus and I collaborated on a GW version of the deck. I'm not playing the deck because I think the archetype's strength is predicated on temporary factors in the metagame. This version, however, has a lot going for it compared to the white version and should be a consideration for Eldrazi pilots.
History: I bombarded Noah (Storm) with UW versions with Reflector Mage, and he got back to me with a much better GW deck after the archetype did well in the P9 event. We did some tuning together.
Sample List:
4 Thought-Knot Seer 4 Reality Smasher 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben 4 Noble Hierarch 3 Eldrazi Displacer 2 Phyrexian Metamorph 1 Restoration Angel 1 Chalice of the Void 2 Stony Silence 4 Thorn of Amethyst 1 Trinisphere 4 Ancient Tomb 4 Cavern of Souls 4 Brushland 3 Eldrazi Temple 3 Wasteland 1 Strip Mine 3 Horizon Canopy 1 Black Lotus 1 Mana Crypt 1 Sol Ring 1 Lotus Petal 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Emerald 1 Mox Jet 1 Mox Sapphire SB: 4 Containment Priest SB: 3 Rest in Peace SB: 3 Nature's Claim SB: 1 Path to Exile SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte SB: 1 Restoration Angel SB: 1 Stony Silence SB: 1 Aegis of the GodsThere are three major reasons to play GW over mono white.
#1 Noble Hierarch
Noble Hierarch is amazing in this deck. By improving the mana base, you get to play Stony Silence, which increases the value of Thorns and Thalias. You get to aggressively Wasteland. You get to more often cast the cards you want to cast on the turns you want to cast them.
The exalted triggers matter, as well, especially in the mirror. 5/5 Thought-Knots and 6/6 Reality Smashers are better than 4/4s and 5/5s. 4/4 Eldrazi Displacers or 3/2 Thalias can attack through a lot more opposing creatures than 3/3s and 2/1s.
Hierarch makes ever spell in the deck better and ever creature better once it gets on the battlefield.
Noble Hierach lets you skew your manabase heavier towards colored sources without compromising your explosiveness. This means you get to cast Reality Smasher and Rest in Peace.
#2 Stony Silence
Stony Silence is an incredibly important card to this archetype. Jason Jaco’s powerless version works because he plays maindeck Null Rods. These effects ensure your Thorns and Thalia’s do what they are supposed to do. They shut down Triskelion and Ravager and Jitte. Ravager MUD is a solidly unfavorable matchup for Mono White but even for GW. You can’t play Stony Silence or Null Rod in Mono White because the moxen are too important to the mana base. And you can’t use Eye of Ugin’s in White Eldrazi to solve that problem because you need to cast your white cards. Noble Hierarch lets you play Stony Silence and Thalia and Thought-Knot Seer in the same deck. Neither Mono White nor Colorless Eldrazi can play all of them.
#3 Horizon Canopy
This archetype has a lot of lands. Horizon Canopy is a great way to manage flooding. Noble Hierarch helps let us cycle it aggressively. Mono White should be playing Horizon Canopy over Plains anyway, so this doesn’t count as a reason to play GW over W, just to play GW over Wx.
An important note: going to two colors in this archetype is nearly free because the Shivan Reef cycle of painlands are better than basics and even duals. The Wasteland protection basic Plains theoretically provides actually doesn’t matter because Plains are your worst land and your opponent is never going to be wasting them over Temples, Tombs, or Caverns. Increased exposure to Wasteland in GW is alleviated again by Noble Hierarch, who actually makes this deck better against Wasteland than Mono White.
These three cards make GW better in the mirror, against Workshops, and against Combo.
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@Khahan Sapphire is the most played Mox, so it's the one you'll most often want to name with Phyrexian Revoker. Blue is also the most played color with many double U spells like Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Dig Through Time and Mana Drain being played, so Mox Sapphire will be the Mox your opponent will want to steal with Dack Fayden the most often.
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@wappla that's a very interesting decklist and argument for GW. When you say temporary factors which factors do you mean?
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@wappla I was thinking what would be a new variant of this deck and your list seems to be a very nice start.
4 thalia is I think 1 too much, i think we could play a vryn wingmare or another piece of lock (leonin arbiter, aven mindcensoer, canonist ...)
Why cutting the 3 priest? They are more than great with displacer, and can win game 1 vs ichorid. They are even more important with displacer as the format is running more and more creatures.I didn't like much the 5 plains in the mono white deck. Canopy seems a great replacement.
I really like the 2 stony silence here, would go for 3 because you really want them.
Angel is cute but will be counterable, and need many mana + a creature to do something relevant. I feel it's worse than displacer in the deck, will have to test it though.Looking at the deck, i can count 34 mana sources, that is crazy. 4 of them are nobles and 3 are canopies but I fear we'll get flooded pretty fast...
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@Khahan said:
- Do you find 3 thalia's is 1 too many? How often is 1 on the board and you draw dead picking up a second one?
Three Thalias has been fine. If you draw a second Thalia you can be more aggressive with the first until it dies, and often it's the target of removal anyway. If I have any complaint it's that 1W is not the smoothest casting cost for the deck (I found myself playing Thalia on turn two off of an Ancient Tomb quite a bit), but Containment Priests probably drop before Thalias if that was a big enough problem
- Only 4 mox? Any particular reason you cut sapphire?
Four Moxes were already in the lists I was using. I would have loved to fit the fifth, but I'm not sure there are any reasonable lands to cut. Tomb, Temple, and Cavern are all too good to budge. Some people might cut a Wasteland, but I've found them so strong in my experience with non Eldrazi prison/aggro strategies. The only question is whether or not you can cut one of the Plains, and I wasn't comfortable enough with the deck yet to gamble on that when I played the list.
As to why Sapphire, specifically, @varal was correct. I don't care about any colors besides white, and Sapphire is the Mox I would be most likely to name with a Phyrexian Revoker.
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@DrStreetmention I agree, the lists I found online felt light on both Shops and Dredge hate, so I added a handful of extra cards there, though I wasn't paired against them, and haven't gotten a chance to play those matchups yet, so I can't be sure they were enough.
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I love the innovation here. This list definitely seems worth a try. At the tournament, @Juggernaut-GO mentioned Horizon Canopy to me. I immediately regretted not running some in my list, despite being mono-white.
I considered running Stony Silence/Null Rod in my list, but ended up deciding against it. I wasn't sure if the mana could take it, and I didn't want to experiment too much at NYSE - and it competed with the Tormod's Crypts I wanted against Storm combo, and the Umezawa's Jittes I wanted against Shops and the mirror (which definitely paid off). The card is definitely powerful and synergistic though.
I'm actually not convinced Stony Silence is better than Null Rod here though. Enchantment is a much better type than artifact, but getting 1W mana is not exactly reliable, esepcially on turn 1. Curving Tomb->Rod into Wingmare or Thalia or Displacer or Thought-Knot just feels so much better than more resistant to the artifact removal your opponent maybe shouldn't be bringing in against you anyway. I guess this depends on how people end up deciding to sideboard against the deck.
Noble Hierarch feels really strong, but like @CwaM, I'm reluctant to add more mana to the list which already has more mana than I've ever seen in a vintage deck.
In quick defense of basic plains, Path to Exile, Ghost Quarter, Blood Moon, and Back to Basics are all cards I've heard mentioned as anti-Eldrazi. I also don't know if the deck can support 12 painlands, 4 was already pretty tough ... but that's testable.
If the mana does work out, than green gives you lots of interesting potential options
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Excellent finish and nice list:) I think I'm starting with yours and will test from there:)
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Null Rod is both better and worse than it was this past weekend. It's better against Shops because it taps to Tangle Wire, but it's worse because a resurgence of Shops makes being an artifact worse in other matchups. When I really want Stony Silence to resolve, say against Tezzeret, I rarely lead with it anyway. Leading with a Thorn/Thalia either baits their Force, or forces them to play out their moxen, which gives me more information about whether they are holding a Force, or is better than a Stony would be anyway, because they have no moxen.
Hierarch solves a lot of problems with the mana base. Against Blood Moon you just Metamorph their Trinket Mage and get your Sol Ring or Mana Crypt for a colorless source. You also have Nature's Claim/Disenchants. I could see a single basic for Path/GQ protection, but that's about it.
34 Mana sources is misleading because 8-9 of our lands are also spells (Canopies/Wastelands/Strip Mines) and the 4 Hierarchs both let us use those lands as spells instead of mana and tend to deal 2-3 damage over the course of a game with exalted triggers, which is often worth a turn. 4 Hierarchs also increase the odds of T2 Thought-Knot, which puts us up a card a turn earlier than we would be. That said, I've played 1-3 Tireless Trackers in the Restoration Angel slot as a draw engine and really liked it. It clashes with Stony Silence, but usually you are winning anyway if you have Silence out, or else you are drawing into it with Tracker.
4 Thalia is correct. She is the reason we are playing white in the first place. I would much rather have two than zero. Your opponent desperately wants to kill her. You want your thorn effects on turn one. Wingmare seems good because it lets you stack Thorns, but this is mostly necessary because the mono white deck can't support Null Rod/Stony Silence. Furthermore, Because of Hierarch, we are going to 4 mana on turn 2 as much as possible, meaning the value of three drops is somewhat diminished.
Containment Priest moves to the board because Priest is awful in the Displacer mirror. I could see one or two maindeck, but as much as I love the card, I think going too heavy on maindeck Priest is a mistake.
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@wappla without testing, I would go for the null rod to have more threats availableon turn 1. But if you really want to run stony silence, I would go with full moxen to power it on turn one.
I am really not sure wanting noble hierarch. It makes less turn 1 threats (or turn 1 threat into turn2 hierarch which isn't that great). It also makes you naming more human than eldrazi with caverns, which I don't like and when you are going for it turn one, opponent mental misstep becomes great value, and I really don't like that!
On Priests, you can't only think about the mirror where they can be great when you have the displacer. Also they are obviously great vs oath and dredge. You will have more space and hates from your sideboard to hate dredge using 3 MD.
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I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.
I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.
Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.
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@DrStreetmention said:
I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.
I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.
Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.
I think smasher is the wrong card to take out. You are taking out a card that can win the game in 2-3 turns that forces your opponent to dig for a solution to a card to slows down your opponents ability to dig but needs more turns to win.
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@Khahan said:
@DrStreetmention said:
I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.
I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.
Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.
I think smasher is the wrong card to take out. You are taking out a card that can win the game in 2-3 turns that forces your opponent to dig for a solution to a card to slows down your opponents ability to dig but needs more turns to win.
Ok, that's reasonable. What third card would you cut? (given that I'm trying to test Spirit of the Labyrinth I'd like three for now, but maybe 0-2 would be better).
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@DrStreetmention said:
@Khahan said:
@DrStreetmention said:
I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.
I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.
Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.
I think smasher is the wrong card to take out. You are taking out a card that can win the game in 2-3 turns that forces your opponent to dig for a solution to a card to slows down your opponents ability to dig but needs more turns to win.
Ok, that's reasonable. What third card would you cut? (given that I'm trying to test Spirit of the Labyrinth I'd like three for now, but maybe 0-2 would be better).
I think I would cut a displacer and a priest for 2 spirits to test out how spirit actually works for you.
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I think null rod and metamorph need to be in here. I'm also trying main deck dismember over swords.
If you want to improve the gush match up, try ethersworn canonist .
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@John-Cox said:
I think null rod and metamorph need to be in here. I'm also trying main deck dismember over swords.
If you want to improve the gush match up, try ethersworn canonist .I could see a good argument for metamorph but I don't think null rod really belongs in the build presented by Brass Man. This plays out like an agro deck, wanting to drop as many big threats as quickly as possible and end the game asap. Unless you take out 1 or 2 thorns for null rod possibly. Anything else I think its starting to dilute the strategy too much and turn it into a control deck. Not that white eldrazi couldn't handle that. But I think at that point we're getting into a different build and probably want to look at even more lock pieces.
