Initiative to help save Paper Vintage
-
Let’s face it? Sanctioned Paper Vintage events require paper cards to be used and people don’t want to risk damaging their valuable cards when using them or do not want to take their graded cards out of their casings to use in a tournaments. I propose a very simple alternative that will essentially use real paper cards without actually really using them. Just use proxies for certain cards and then at the end of the match all players reveal out of their collection the real cards or when the opponent askes to see the card. Proxies have been used for many tournaments but are not normally used in sanctioned events. But what is the real difference in using a proxy of a card that you have the real one of in your pocket? None. You actually have the card all along throughout the match you just have it in your pocket instead of in your deck. This alteration follows the idea of using real cards in sanctioned events, just think of the actual cards as being in a different zone and using a token in its place. In order for this alteration to happen the following would have to happen:
-Wizards of the Coast would have to sanction this idea to be allowed in general play as well as in sanctioned tournaments.
-The proxy itself would have to follow certain rules and specifications.
-Only pre-approved cards can be allowed on an official list. Having hundreds of people getting a judge’s approval for proxied cards to be used will take up too much time and can lead to other problems.
-The pre-approved list would have to only allow cards of significant value and not be available in less expensive versions, i.e. power nine, Mishra’s Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, etc. because only expensive versions of them are available and not alpha dual lands because the player has an option of playing less expensive 3rd edition versions.
-If the person playing the proxy was asked to show that they had the real card available, that player would have to show that card along with as many proxies were revealed at a time. For example if a Dredge deck were to reveal four Bazaar of Baghdad proxies, then that player would have to prove that they had four real Bazaar of Baghdad on demand. However if only two Bazaar of Baghdad proxies were revealed out of the deck, then the player would only have to prove that they owned two real ones.
-If more than one copy of a card were allowed in a deck (such as four), the player may choose to mix real cards along with proxies as long as the legal limit of the card is not exceeded.
If this alteration were to be allowed, it would mean more people would want to play in paper events, which leads to more game play, which leads to a better economy for MTG and more fun for all. This could mean 100+ more registrations for the next Eternal Weekend.
-
@daniel-worobec
i hate proxy,
I would prefer that WOTC print old cards and abolish the reserved list...
this is the only way to save paper vintage... -
... a bit farfetched, but maybe WOTC could let people use proxies of cards they own on MTGO. Then you would also get the crowds in that can't afford the really expensive of the paper cards, and WOTC would be in control and not fully abandoning their proxy policy. I don't think current paper Vintage supports their revenue streams firsthand today, but this way there would be some more direct revenue.
-
I think that the set of people who can't justify owning/buying 20k worth of hp/mp power is much much larger than the set of people who own graded power and don't want to crack it out of the case. for that matter, people who own that 20k of cardboard have a much bigger fear of theft/loss, which is still very much a risk if you keep your real cards in a bag and play with proxies, than of their double sleeved cards getting substantial wear from playing maybe a dozen rounds of magic a year.
if you want to save paper vintage get people to run proxy events, rather than no events at all.
A grave is the safest place to store ill-gotten treasures.
NYSE 3 winner, vintage champs 2015 top 4, vintage champs mox emerald 2021 top 4.
Unban Shahrazad.
-
@blindtherapy said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
people who own that 20k of cardboard have a much bigger fear of theft/loss
The risk thing is something I'm hearing more and more. MTG Goldfish estimates that, if real, my Vintage deck would be worth $97k. I'm not going to risk damage or loss of a hundred grand to potentially win $100 in store credit at the local.
-
@thecravenone said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
@blindtherapy said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
people who own that 20k of cardboard have a much bigger fear of theft/loss
The risk thing is something I'm hearing more and more. MTG Goldfish estimates that, if real, my Vintage deck would be worth $97k. I'm not going to risk damage or loss of a hundred grand to potentially win $100 in store credit at the local.
Plenty of people including myself play old school just for the fun of it. Old School decks are generally a lot more valuable than Vintage decks depending on your level of alpha investment. We don’t play to win store credit. The enjoyment comes from playing with the original cards. I use AN City of Brass, alpha basics/bolts/counterspells at modern FNM tournaments because it’s fun.
That said, there are some great proxy services out there. You can make your entire deck with custom art and custom backs through a service such as this: https://www.mpcautofill.com/
These aren’t fake cards pretending to be real. These are just playing cards used for playing. Some people go the extra mile and put on the back (“players edition”) or something similar just to be extra clear.
So if you’re entire 75 were to be proxies of the same make and consistency, like a deck of playing cards, that would be fun to play, right? Wouldn’t even need sleeves.
Also, I’m pretty sure WotC/Hasbro is against pro-play. So I don’t understand the fascination with being able to play in a sanctioned tournament. It’s never going to culminate into anything. Buy the cards you want to buy and do whatever you wish with them. But don’t buy power just to be able to compete in a tournament that may never occur again.
-
@caron No one likes proxies. Proxies are a necessary way to play older formats now. I am using proxies when building and testing Modern decks now.
The idea that Wizards could even print to the demand of the market and make the cards affordable is not realistic. Do this thought exercise - Wizards prints Eternal Masters 2 and adds Dual lands. How much demand is really there? How much would those lands cost?
Look at fetch lands. The enemy fetch lands were reprinted in 2017 and just now in MH2 and those were in a standard legal set about 12yrs ago and they are still hovering around $40-$50 and will go back up to around $100 in about a year.
The demand for these cards in Commander and Legacy is large but the speculation is HUGE and reprints alone will not solve the cost issue. Look at Chalice of the Void, it is still around $50 and was reprinted this year in Time Spiral remastered and printed in 2018.
The idea that reprints will "save" paper is misguided. We do need proxies but we also need to some way to make it all work if we want paper Vintage.
-
@moorebrother1 said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
Look at fetch lands. The enemy fetch lands were reprinted in 2017 and just now in MH2 and those were in a standard legal set about 12yrs ago and they are still hovering around $40-$50 and will go back up to around $100 in about a year.
just as a point of clarification, the enemy fetches are now between 20 and 35 dollars. tarmogoyf is $25. they're gonna go back up, sure, but let's not pretend that wotc printing volcanic island in the quantities it prints scalding tarn at wouldn't result in the new copies costing <10% of what a revised copy of the card currently costs. I don't think this is terribly likely, but the logistics of them printing to demand isn't the actual complication; 'secret lair: allied duals' for $300 msrp would sell like hot cakes.
-
There are some cards that could be mitigated with printings from the reserve list, either direct printings or even in some cases strictly superior ones to invalidate the need for old ones. I truly think that at this point they could print strictly better true dual land and it wouldn't much matter because the Fetches are really the thing that power the land bases. Things like Moat are not even really a concern anymore honestly. That might help a format like Legacy, though I doubt they would ever do it.
None of that will ever fix the elephant in the format, which are the P9, Shops, and Bazaar. You simply cannot make better versions of those cards, you cannot ban them or even restrict them any more at this point based on community feedback, or straight reprint they because of the outrage the secondary market would have and the RL. They have tried to come up with parallel strategies to make you not want to run those cards in favor of some other mutually exclusive strategy and have failed time and time again.
So short term, if you really want to save paper vintage, you need to take the pressure off the value and necessity of some of these cards. Proxies do not work for any number or reasons, but especially if you still have to carry around a high liability of cards with you. Print slightly worse versions of Bazaar and Shops and restrict the real ones, it basically cuts the prices of those decks by 75% and potentially opens up a bunch of supply. You basically have to try and directly craft the format like they have done with Modern.
Long term, honestly, I think you need a points system like Canadian Highlander. Maybe you don't want to take those moxen if it costs you your fetch lands or something and instead you play a Fair deck like delver that has access to Force of will or whatever. You have to give the players some reason to not want to use the obviously optimal cards that you cannot reprint and a rules change is basically the only way.
-
@protoaddict said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
Print slightly worse versions of Bazaar and Shops and restrict the real ones, it basically cuts the prices of those decks by 75% and potentially opens up a bunch of supply. You basically have to try and directly craft the format like they have done with Modern.
this does mess up edh a fair bit, depending how you do it; if you restrict bazaar/shop and print a card that's otherwise identical but costs 1 life to activate, vintage becomes 'play a total of 5 of this' and edh goes from 1 to 2; shop/bazaar are not the most widespread cards in that format but, say, gaea's cradle is pretty common, and optimal deckbuilding would mean running both (for the people who play cedh and the like). 'legendary duals' or whatever your workaround there is also matters for this reason, in that the 2nd of a given dual you fetch is now just another dual instead of a shock. given that wotc puts a good bit more attention into commander than vintage, i think that the perspective of that format is worth considering when anticipating wotc's devisions.
A grave is the safest place to store ill-gotten treasures.
NYSE 3 winner, vintage champs 2015 top 4, vintage champs mox emerald 2021 top 4.
Unban Shahrazad.
-
@blindtherapy This brings up an interesting question. How much should a paper Vintage deck cost?
I was looking around and Modern decks range from $400 - $1500 and players complain. EHD decks are crazy expensive if you bling them out and get the chase cards.
A playset of Force of Will is about $400 and it was just reprinted about 2yrs ago. That puts the baseline paper Vintage deck at around $1000 if we assume that moxes and such are priced similar to Jeweled Lotus in Commander Legends.
My point is the "cheap" version of paper Vintage is still expensive to most, but I guess a $1000 - $2000 deck is less than a $100,000 - $20,000.
Players complained 20yrs ago about $1000 decks and they will complain tomorrow too.
-
@blindtherapy said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
this does mess up edh a fair bit, depending how you do it; if you restrict bazaar/shop and print a card that's otherwise identical but costs 1 life to activate, vintage becomes 'play a total of 5 of this' and edh goes from 1 to 2; shop/bazaar are not the most widespread cards in that format but, say, gaea's cradle is pretty common, and optimal deckbuilding would mean running both (for the people who play cedh and the like). 'legendary duals' or whatever your workaround there is also matters for this reason, in that the 2nd of a given dual you fetch is now just another dual instead of a shock. given that wotc puts a good bit more attention into commander than vintage, i think that the perspective of that format is worth considering when anticipating wotc's devisions.
A - EDH is a casual format. WOTC has printed cards in recent sets that literally don't work in EDH and said YOLO, Whatever, so I have no issue with them preemptivley banning cards there and I doubt they do either. How many of the still legal money cards see play in EDH to an extent that matters anyway? Cradle and Wheel of Fortune are honestly the only ones that seems truly problematic to me.
B - I think there are creative ways to do a new Bazaar and Workshops that do not not strictly powerup other formats or just add another copy to vintage decks. A workshops that was legendary and tapped for 2 artifact mana would honestly be perfect fine, they get +1 "shop" overall and probably cut like an ancient tomb, but it does not even help shore up any weaknesses the list had in the first place. Bazaar you could probably make a legendary land that was draw 1, discard 2, but reverse the order on them, make the discard a cost as it were. It would probably not be as strong as bazaar, but honestly discarding first may even be better as it means you can dredge off the thing in your hand turn 1. As a 1 of in EDH i do not see that being backbreaking, and you can staple lifeloss onto it as well if it proved too much. All this only works if you restrict the other cards though, and shop's kinda does not matter if the moxen are still a thing. I truly believe that if you restricted Bazaar not only would dredge still be a fine deck, it would be a perfectly viable one that only required a single 4 figure card which is much more reasonable.
@moorebrother1 said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
@blindtherapy This brings up an interesting question. How much should a paper Vintage deck cost?
There are some metrics I think come into play here as good barometers. I believe the currency limit to travel overseas is 10k right, otherwise you have to declare shit and take out insurance. That seems like a fine cut off to me since part of the issue is traveling with the cards.
-
@protoaddict said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
WOTC has printed cards in recent sets that literally don't work in EDH and said YOLO, Whatever,
wotc struggles to go a year without a standard-legal card needing day 0 errata because they forgot to put the word 'other' or 'may' on the printed card, or printed a card that makes 'angel tokens' without specifying that the tokens are creatures. This is a QC problem more than a design philosophy.
I have no issue with them preemptivley banning cards there and I doubt they do either.
Lutri shows us that wotc is willing to print cards that need a preemptive commander ban so the card can exist for other formats; I do not believe that vintage is a format wotc would do this for. Even lutri was a special case, really. wotc definitely isn't going to print 'swap meet of sadr' as a pseudo-bazaar and then ban the card they just printed intentionally (though decent chance that if they do so they judge the power level wrong and it gets the hammer in legacy/modern).
How many of the still legal money cards see play in EDH to an extent that matters anyway? Cradle and Wheel of Fortune are honestly the only ones that seems truly problematic to me.
cradle and wheel are good examples of RL edh cards below the 'I'm playing timetwister/tabernacle/workshop/bazaar' level, but the format is full of them: mox diamond, LED, intuition, gilded drake, survival of the fittest, copy artifact, power artifact, transmute artifact...
oh, and ABUR duals.
let's just look at duals.
wotc has a few options, just looking at edh as the format they care about (second order effects on vintage from each option should be obvious):
A : don't try to cheat the reserve list, just keep printing various mana fixing, including things like non-fetchable duals that enter untapped in multiplayer formats. this is what they're currently doing.
B : cheat the list, print your legendary snow duals or whatever, ban real duals in edh. edh/legacy/ (some) vintage demand exists aplenty for your new cards, people who own the old cards get pretty mad (especially if they are edh-primary and not legacy/vintage players first)
C : cheat the list, print legendary snow duals, but then ban them in edh. This makes legacy/vintage more affordable but is a horrible idea because it's just a middle finger to the much larger commander customer base.
D : cheat the list, leave both existing and new cards legal. edh, legacy, and vintage all get cheaper. it's not possible to play 8 copies of whatever instead of 4, or 2 instead of 1, depending.D would be fine wrt duals, give or take reserve list concerns, when it comes to gameplay, mostly because fetches exist; people trying to play optimized 3-5 color edh get to replace shocks with extra duals but that's a minor thing. Gaea's cradle, LED, mox diamond having 'replacement' cards available just means that the optimal list now runs both versions, probably; this is at least the case with stuff like Wheel of Misfortune.
Overall I think directed actions at legacy/vintage are going to continue to be printing stuff like Collector Ouphe rather than stuff that has outsized effects on more mainstream formats (edh or modern, depending on the card).I truly believe that if you restricted Bazaar not only would dredge still be a fine deck, it would be a perfectly viable one that only required a single 4 figure card which is much more reasonable.
as a dredge player, i'm pretty sure restricting bazaar makes dredge have to play colored mana sources and spells, at which point sapphire/lotus/ancestral make the deck far more expensive.
A grave is the safest place to store ill-gotten treasures.
NYSE 3 winner, vintage champs 2015 top 4, vintage champs mox emerald 2021 top 4.
Unban Shahrazad.
-
@blindtherapy
This is of course assuming it still exists as a deck which at that point is a very live question. -
@blindtherapy said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
cradle and wheel are good examples of RL edh cards below the 'I'm playing timetwister/tabernacle/workshop/bazaar' level, but the format is full of them: mox diamond, LED, intuition, gilded drake, survival of the fittest, copy artifact, power artifact, transmute artifact...
oh, and ABUR duals.
let's just look at duals.A lot of those cards being banned would honestly just make for a healthier Commander. Cradle, Power artifact, Mox Diamond are almost never used in fair decks in the spirit of the rule 0 format. Stuff like guilded drake I think you could print alternate versions and take the pressure off for sure, there are not that many decks that really want to run 2+ drakes anyway.
@blindtherapy said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
oh, and ABUR duals.
let's just look at duals.The duals are not a problem for EDH so much as they are for legacy and bvintage. They provide such minimal optimal play that most players will eschew them anyways to make the deck more in the spirit of rule 0, and there are honestly functionally better cards for a lot of decks in the format, especially since tribal decks are much more prominent in EDH than vintage. Most players are going to look to play Murmuring Bosk in their Treefolk deck, or sliver hive in their sliver deck before they look to ABUR duals.
@blindtherapy said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
as a dredge player, i'm pretty sure restricting bazaar makes dredge have to play colored mana sources and spells, at which point sapphire/lotus/ancestral make the deck far more expensive.
I meant this in the context of there being a viable powered down replacement. Let's say you have a dredge list with 4 bazaars and no other power. Now they print a card that is a worse bazaar (Draw 1 discard 2 and legendary) but you can run 4 of them +1 bazaar. Which option is better? It may actually be the deck that can have 4 bazaar analogues +1 real one versus a deck with better cards but -1 redundant versions of them.
Let me take it to the next level, what about this land:
Marketplace of Baghdad
Legendary Land
Dredge 1
T, pay 2 life: Draw a card, then discard 2 cards.So now we have a land that is not a strictly worse card and has it's own merits, but could arguably live in other formats. Why does bazaar need to remain unrestricted if you have this. Ill also just reiterate my stance that Bazaar and Shops are no more iconic than other format staples/pillars like the power cards, library, etc, and all of them were restricted. I don't believe long term there is a way to fix the paper format for vintage without a very sweeping and stark approach that tosses aside a lot of the paradigms we have held true about the format for a long time.
-
@lienielsen said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
@thecravenone said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
@blindtherapy said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
people who own that 20k of cardboard have a much bigger fear of theft/loss
The risk thing is something I'm hearing more and more. MTG Goldfish estimates that, if real, my Vintage deck would be worth $97k. I'm not going to risk damage or loss of a hundred grand to potentially win $100 in store credit at the local.
Plenty of people including myself play old school just for the fun of it. Old School decks are generally a lot more valuable than Vintage decks depending on your level of alpha investment. We don’t play to win store credit. The enjoyment comes from playing with the original cards. I use AN City of Brass, alpha basics/bolts/counterspells at modern FNM tournaments because it’s fun.
Your risk tolerance is not my risk tolerance but your risk tolerance is okay.
@moorebrother1 said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
@caron No one likes proxies.
I like proxies.
Quote from: Stormanimagus on March 16, 2016, 06:39:41 pm
>Instead of tearing things down we should calmly explain our opinions. -
@thecravenone said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
I like proxies.
Me too! They're a great way to increase affordability and even let you get creative with the art and other things. I want more people to play Vintage, and there's no question that the normalization of proxies is by far the most practical and immediately impactful way to make that happen.
-
@revengeanceful What actually constitutes playing Vintage, or as per the OP, "Paper" Vintage?
I think a lot of people can make the argument that if you are playing with proxies you are not really playing the format. It is in many ways against the spirit of the game itself. You certainly are not playing in sanctioned events with proxies. I also think it is fair for people to just not like proxies, as is my stance as well.
But proxies are and have been pretty common in non-sanctioned vintage events for years now. And some people do show up with proxied lists, be they players who cannot afford the format or people who just wanted to try a new deck before investing. Having those proxy events have not helped sustain or grow the format for the past few years, so normalizing it at the sanctioned level probably would not have much of a life overall.
-
@protoaddict
Well reprinting the reserved list would help
. But short of that, legalizing proxies would bring some attention to vintage. -
@john-cox said in Initiative to help save Paper Vintage:
@protoaddict
Well reprinting the reserved list would help . But short of that, legalizing proxies would bring some attention to vintage.You realize that modern players complain about things like Mishra’s Bauble, Amulet of Vigor, Colossus Hammer, and losing on turn 3, right? I can’t imagine these people suddenly lining up to play against PO or Dredge just because proxies are legal. Proxies and the price of cards aren’t the only factors preventing Vintage from being a popular MTG format. The gameplay and deck construction constraints don’t appeal to most people.
