[MH2] Grief
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this card is an unmask that:
can't be hit by Flusterstorm, Force of Negation, Misdirection, etc
triggers bridge from below, yours and opponent's
triggers vengevine(!)
pitches to ichorid
counts as a creature card for krovikan horror (and nether shadow, i guess)
can be dread returned (you won't play DR just for this, but it's a very nice option to have)this is apparently part of a cycle.
the question isn't if this card is playable, because unmask sees regular play in dredge. The question is if this is playable in places unmask isn't (triggering vengevine), or if you want unmask in addition to this.A grave is the safest place to store ill-gotten treasures.
NYSE 3 winner, vintage champs 2015 top 4.
Unban Shahrazad.
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Card is really good. I am curious to see the other ones before I pass judgement. I'm more excited for this card in actual modern though if I am being honest because I will break the hell out of this in Living End.
So help me god if the blue one is a flash creature with a manaleak effect.
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The interaction with [[Grief]] and [[Ephemerate]] is straight bonkers. One white mana gets you triple Thoughtseize and a 3/3. And the fist discard trigger resolves before you cast Ephemerate so they'd need 2 counters to stop it. That's going to be a game win on the play pretty often. Whether or not that's a Vintage-quality interaction to build around is another question
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@brass-man in addition to ephemerate and lesser versions of it (undying evil for example, which people used in pauper with muldrifter for the same trick) Grief is also a target for Reanimate, and that legacy deck that already plays unmask.
A grave is the safest place to store ill-gotten treasures.
NYSE 3 winner, vintage champs 2015 top 4.
Unban Shahrazad.
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This card is disturbing
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This card looks really really good. I keep thinking at some point Wizards will learn their lesson about free spells, but then they keep doing stuff like this that shows otherwise.
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@blindtherapy said in [MH2] Grief:
@brass-man in addition to ephemerate and lesser versions of it (undying evil for example, which people used in pauper with muldrifter for the same trick) Grief is also a target for Reanimate, and that legacy deck that already plays unmask.
I think that Ephemerate may actually be overkill. How many cards does one need to strip turn one to win the the game? The second shot for Ephemerate does not happen until the next turn which can also means if this eats a bolt or something turn one then you would have been better off with Undying for the +1/+1 counter anyway.
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@protoaddict said in [MH2] Grief:
The second shot for Ephemerate does not happen until the next turn which can also means if this eats a bolt or something turn one then you would have been better off with Undying for the +1/+1 counter anyway.
i think the upside when you get the rebound is worth the scenarios where your opponent either had 3 bolts in hand or drew one for turn, and ephemerate is likely going to be a better card with the rest of your deck than undying evil, given the creatures that are usually modern playable.
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The second shot for Ephemerate does not happen until the next turn which can also means if this eats a bolt or something turn one then you would have been better off with Undying for the +1/+1 counter anyway.
I don't think this really adds up? If your opponent has Bolt and you play Grief+Undying, they're down two cards and they can Bolt the Grief, it's the exact same scenario as Ephemerate and the +1/+1 counter has no impact. Of course if they have a Bolt, you get to see that and decide to take it. The only situation where you wouldn't just take their Bolt with Grief is if they had 2 cards in their hand that are more important for you to remove than the Bolt is. If THAT'S the case then we're talking about a scenario where Ephemerate takes all 3 cards, leaving you with a 3/2, but an Undying would leave you with Grief in the graveyard. As always, I'd rather overkill than underkill
I think Ephemerate is a significantly better interaction than Undying, we're talking neutral vs positive card advantage, which is a big deal. If you're just saying that it might not be worth adding white to a deck that may not otherwise have white, I think that's fair argument. A hand of 2x [[Undying Evil]] 1x [[Grief]] is much better than a hand of 2x [[Ephemerate]] 1x [[Grief]] and no other black spell to pitch.
Really, neither effect is Vintage-Quality on its own, so personally I'm curious about what sort of cards you might run alongside this. Cards to make undying or flicker effects not terrible if you draw them without Grief. I think that's what's going to make the interaction successful or not.
Of course, Grief has plenty of use outside of cute, Brassman-friendly combos. It should be a significant upgrade over Unmask in any deck that with Vengevine or Ichorid or Bridge from Below ... hey wait a minute
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oh, it also plays nice with Culling the Weak in a way that unmask doesn't.
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@blindtherapy said in [MH2] Grief:
this card is an unmask that:
There is a difference between "target opponent" and "target player." So I wouldn't claim that Grief is strictly better than Unmask.
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@chronatog this is true; in legacy reanimator being able to target yourself is very relevant. you can Grief your opponent and reanimate the Grief, but that's a very different line that unmasking yourself and reanimating griselbrand.
funnily i noted that this card is immune to misdirection, but i was thinking about how it was a trigger, not the player/opponent difference. -
I bet the blue card is something like:
Sadness
2UU
Flying, Flash
3/2
When Sadness enters the battlefield, counter target spell or ability.
Evoke-Pay 1 lifeBecause why wouldn't blue just get the best?
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@thewhitedragon69 my current expectation is that the effects will probably all be things that would cost 1-2 mana if they were their own card; blue is almost certainly not going to be an improved counterspell, but could be, like, spell pierce, maybe.
Of course, i also think it's likely that the whole cycle is sorcery speed effects, which would preclude counterspells.
but we should keep discussion of those cards limited to the threads for them when they are spoiled, this is Single-Card Discussion. Otherwise I'm sure we could talk endlessly about how we're sure the blue and green ones will be insane and the white and red ones will be unplayable. -
You guys saw the Rishadan Merfolk? Straight nasty!
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@lienielsen i saw it but didn't think it was vintage relevant. If you think it is you should start a thread for it.
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@brass-man said in [MH2] Grief:
I think Ephemerate is a significantly better interaction than Undying, we're talking neutral vs positive card advantage, which is a big deal. If you're just saying that it might not be worth adding white to a deck that may not otherwise have white, I think that's fair argument. A hand of 2x [[Undying Evil]] 1x [[Grief]] is much better than a hand of 2x [[Ephemerate]] 1x [[Grief]] and no other black spell to pitch.
Positive card advantage but at the cost of tempo since you are summoning sicknessing your guy the next turn, assuming that the rebound resolves with this still on board and that they had enough nonland cards for you to hit. I do think the idea of adding white to the deck is actually demonstrably worse than if you don't need to, since I'm not sure what else you get from the color except swords or balance and balance might actually just be garbage after you grief them once.
All of that is not considering the dredge scenario mind you, since drege does not care about either of these things.
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this card does break bridges against dredge while clearing a counterspell from their hand for 0 mana so you can resolve your hate piece. of course, this card will probably see the most play in other bazaar decks.
the ephemerate or undying evil tricks are likely too cute for vintage, barring a number of other creatures in a deck that benefit from them. ephemerate + eternal witness + time walk wins the game, of course, but i doubt that deck has enough black cards for Grief. -
@protoaddict said in [MH2] Grief:
Positive card advantage but at the cost of tempo since you are summoning sicknessing your guy the next turn
True, I hadn't really considered the extra turn in addition to the extra point of power. In terms of clock that means Grief+Ephemerate deals 0/0/3/6/9/12/15/18/21 for a lethal turn 9, Undying Evil deals 0/4/8/16/20 for a lethal turn 5. Ephemerate takes their 3rd best card but gives them 4 cards in topdecks. In practice other threats or blockers are going to shift this number around, but that's a huge difference. I still like how Ephemerate doesn't require the graveyard and has really powerful synergies with other Vintage-Quality cards (like Snapcaster Mage), but you've convinced me that Undying Evil is a lot better at this than I thought at first glance
@blindtherapy said in [MH2] Grief:
the ephemerate or undying evil tricks are likely too cute for vintage, barring a number of other creatures in a deck that benefit from them. ephemerate + eternal witness + time walk wins the game, of course, but i doubt that deck has enough black cards for Grief.
Honestly I think this is the correct take. The card's real impact is going to be as an upgrade for Bazaar decks. But cute interactions are what get me going in Vintage so that's where my head's at.
I just noticed [[Malakir Rebirth]], which, while a worse effect than either Ephemerate or Undying Evil, can be played as a land, compensating for the by-far biggest weakness of this interaction, which is that these cards are pretty bad when you don't draw Grief. 4 Rebirth probably gives you more keepable hands than 4 Ephemerate or Undying Evil.
Unlike Ephemerate/Evil, I could see actually running Malakir Rebirth in non-gimmicky Bazaar deck, some of which can get real mileage out of a sometimes-Swamp to fire off a [[Cabal Therapy]], save a creature from a [[Tabernacle of the Pendrel Vale]], or pay for a [[Force of Vigor]] through a [[Sphere of Resistance]].
