[LEG] Greed
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@lienielsen I guess I named the wrong card - I was thinking of the 2UU draw 3 (Concentrate). Regardless, 4 mana for a do nothing that turn is a bit slow. And the "draw 9" also comes at the expense of 18 life. That means fetches and FoW add a toll. Yes, you can cast this, untap, and then pump BBBB+8 life into it EoT for 4 cards over 2 turns (or dumping rituals into it, which basically trades a card for a card), but then you have done nothing for 2 turns except draw 4 cards and lose 8 life. If you are playing a deck like pitch long or DPS, you want big value or explosiveness in a card - like necropotence, citadel, memory jar, or the like.
If you are just looking to lower the curve on card draw and stay entirely in black, night's whisper, treacherous blessing, infernal contract are all things, and not really that good. Infernal Contract is at worst 10 life and comes off a single ritual. For the same 4 cards, you pay 8 life and 3B+BBBB over two turns with greed. If IC isn't playable in the same deck, I fail to see how Greed is as good or better.
And vs matches like aggroshops or vengevine or dredge where your life will be quickly pressured, IC can get you 4 cards for as little as 1 life if they bumrush you down to 2 life...Greed wouldn't net you a single card in that case.
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This too,
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On average, I am pretty sure in any Ritual Based storm list, even Dark Confidant trumps Greed. In life cost, mana cost, permanent draw, and as a threat. In the current metagame it might even be less likely to die, seems to be more Force of Vigors than bolts and plows from what I've seen of late. Greed is great in Old School, but there are so many better options now.
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I literally have no idea why you would consider Greed in Vintage. It's VERY underpowered. There are so many things better than it that I can't even list them all. Even the unplayed Fact of Fiction is better. Or Ad Nauseam, or [[Dark Bargain]] or [[Moonlight Bargain]] or [[Mazemind Tome]] or whatever.
Edit: I mean, you know that at 4 mana you can play Jace, right? Or the above mentioned Karn?
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@fsecco I think the OP is looking to stay in black and be a cheaper-than-bargain card-drawing bomb. I like Infernal Contract myself as a 3-mana draw-4 that isn't limited by your life total (unless you are at 1)...and that's pretty unplayable.
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Greed has a greater chance of seeing play in Vintage than Octavia Living Thesis. These other cards you’re mentioning don’t matter. Not one of you has ever resolved Greed in a game of magic and it shows. Sad.
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@lienielsen said in [LEG] Greed:
Not one of you has ever resolved Greed in a game of magic and it shows. Sad.
This seems like an unnecessary attack. I've definitely resolved my fair share of Greeds in my day. I just don't think it's a relevant card in Vintage these days. I'd love to be proven wrong though. No one's stopping you from sketching out a list, testing it, and sharing your results.
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I used to use greed in my zur deck because I couldn't find my copy of necro and was to stubborn to buy another. This attack is unwarranted.
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@revengeanceful It's okay. The OP found what they think is a gem. We all think it's a dud and explained why. They clearly don't want discussion or critique, only praise for finding an unheralded diamond in the rough. Let him run greed in his list and wish it was just about any other bomb or cheap draw spell...he'll come around.
Actually, he'll likely resolve greed in games where he's already got the win in the bag and then be like "See, Greed is awesome!"
A good tester would examine each time he drew greed and wished it were anything else (or if it was an irrelevant draw because he's already won), or if Greed were the one card he needed to win in that situation. But people don't do that with pet cards. They win with "Keeper-running-sedge-troll" and claim the troll won the match, when in reality the other 59 cards won and the troll was irrelevant.
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I’m not attacking. I don’t play with creatures. I am not a creature.
It’s just that if you’re comparing Greed to Jace the Mind Sculptor, Read the Bones, or Yawgmoth’s Bargain and suggesting Greed is unplayable because of those cards, you’re not understanding the scenarios in which Greed is a good card.
My goal is not to receive praise, but to share knowledge and enthusiasm for this gem from Legends. Comparisons with Moonlight Bargain or Fact or Fiction don’t really encapsulate what Greed does.
You can continue referring to me as the OP as if I can’t read and you’re having a private conversation with your buddies. It honestly doesn’t bother me and I won’t be deterred from posting and talking about my ideas in the future.
It’s just a little contradictory that some people would like to set up a Rube Goldberg contraption every time something like Octavia Living Thesis is printed — to somehow find some narrow case where it would work, while simultaneously be completely dismissive of someone else’s enthusiasm for an older card.
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I think Greed is "almost there", but the B mana cost per card drawn is what makes it unplayable. If it were like Necropotence and didn't require the mana payment, but otherwise were the same as its actual wording, it would be pretty damn good. I tried running it like 12 years ago and it didn't quite make the grade. 4-mana permanents which draw cards pretty much need to be planeswalkers nowadays.
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OP is just short for Original Poster.
It's not that Greed is horrible - it's darn good in OS and slower formats. But it is too slow for Vintage. Sure, cards like bargain and FoF aren't comparable because they are more expensive or blue (even if they are more game breaking than Greed when resolved). You can dismiss them in that context.
But then when we mention cards like Night's Whisper, Dark Confidant, or Infernal Contract...they ARE black and cheaper.
DC maybe you can dismiss since it has to survive a turn to even draw 1, and can easily smack you for 5+ life on 1 card. But it does chip away at your opponent's life and comes down on turn 1 sans ritual - so there's that.
Night's Whisper/Read the Bones - don't draw you more than 2 cards ever...so though they are cheaper and set up your win faster, they may not be as good long game (if a long game even matters for a storm or ritual-based deck).
But I think you'll have a hard time explaining away Infernal Contract. For BBB you get 4 cards NOW at the cost of 10 or less life, and usually it's like 6 or less life most games. Greed is 3B + BBBB + minimum 8 life, usually over 2 turns (or trading rituals for cards which is not great CA). The ONLY situation where Greed is better is if you are locked under an opponent's restricted Narset/Leovold/Spirit of Labyrinth and can draw only 1 card a turn on their turn. When a card is only better than another card in a niche situation that rarely occurs - the lesser card is the worse option. In this case, IC > Greed...and IC is unplayed (though I don't think unplayable). So I have a hard time thinking Greed is a Vintage gem when a better card already doesn't make the cut.
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Normally you are snappy but this is very good analysis and explanation.
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I'm just gonna throw some gasoline on the fire and say that skeletal scrying is great
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@botvinik I have my moments. I usually am selective with my snark - typically when someone dismisses good criticisms in favor of a pet...or when someone 5-0s an online league and tries to justify a 1-of they crammed in their 60 by holding that 5-0 record as proof.
In general, I like good discussion on cards. Hard for me to not poke the bear when people get chippy though. Can't contain my online troll sometimes.
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@thewhitedragon69 said in [LEG] Greed:
@botvinik I have my moments. I usually am selective with my snark - typically when someone dismisses good criticisms in favor of a pet...or when someone 5-0s an online league and tries to justify a 1-of they crammed in their 60 by holding that 5-0 record as proof.
In general, I like good discussion on cards. Hard for me to not poke the bear when people get chippy though. Can't contain my online troll sometimes.
Agreed except for one thing. There is a false equivalency comparing unproven cards to minimally proven cards. We should at least respect people that play for their willingness to put their money where their mouth is. Being all talk and no walk is also a detriment to people that are just out there to yuck someone’s yum.
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I have played with Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain. They’re the same card and unrivaled for their ability. If your goal is to play a variant of “Contract Tendrils”, I’m sure there is a build that makes great use of those cards. So I wouldn’t say they’re unplayable. In fact they might even deserve their own thread for deck design.
I admit that my inspiration for Greed has been taken from old school. In terms of raw card draw, there are more straight forward options. But Greed possesses multiple traits that make it unique.
The first is the ability to pace the draws. You don’t have to draw everything at once. You can leave up mana for countermagic and then simply dump the excess into Greed. This makes it great for playing alongside countermagic or playing around Narset. You can also strategically dwindle your life to coincide with a Mirror Universe effect or Death’s Shadow. In this case, Greed can function as part of a win condition.
The second is the initial mana cost. It’s 3B, which means you really don’t have to burn a Ritual to cast it. You can cast it off of some moxes and a Sol Ring and let it sit until it makes sense to use it.
The 3rd is that it is an enchantment. I suspect Black enchantments are one of most elusive card types in the current meta. It can’t be Flusterstormed. It can’t be REBed. It can’t be Okoed or Daked. It can’t be Abrupt Decayed. There is Force of Vigor though, but maybe Greed is not a great card for the Bazaar matchup.
I might compare this card to baby jace. It really isn’t doing much the turn you cast it, but once it’s down it can represent the victory — and it’s not easily removed.
I would very much like to brew with this card. I might not be successful, but I just think there is a little more to this card than meets the eye.
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@lienielsen You are free to brew with anything you want. Let us know how successful you are.
I don't know how valid the "gets around restricted Narset" argument is. That's pretty niche nowadays and won't come up in most blue matchups as a 1-of (and blue will be only half your matches anyway).
In OS, Greed is sweet...but OS is such a slower format than Vintage. I don't even think Greed is fast enough for MODERN. IC/CB is all black, but I thought we were staying in black. If blue is an option to run with counters, then there are lots of superior blue draw spells (standstill for example only dies to REB on the stack - can't be flustered, decayed, vigored, or REBed in play). If we're staying in black...IC is probably the best 3-mana draw-4 I can find. In a deck where you run rituals, BBB is light years faster than 3B - especially when they can remove Greed before you ever draw 1 card with Vigor (and oath/vengevine would eat Greed for lunch with their ability to win faster or take your life toward 0 in a hurry).
You mention Mirror Universe, so I know you are an OS player
. MU has no prayer of ever being a viable win in Vintage nowadays. Death's Shadow is more Modern. I know some have tried a turbo-DS list, but infect is honestly just faster/better (invigorate + berserk anyone?).Play any card you want. But if you are "just throwing the idea out there" without ample testing/success to back it up, people will point out the flaws/reasons why it likely won't work.
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@thewhitedragon69 said in [LEG] Greed:
@lienielsen You are free to brew with anything you want. Let us know how successful you are.
You’ve already made it clear you’re going to shit on his deck if he 5-0s with a maindeck 1-of. If anything I recommend @LieNielsen chose a different community to share his ideas with.
This about you?
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It’s honestly pretty fair to call Greed terrible. I’m still going to go to bat for it but I don’t want to turn this into a flame war thread.
