@vaughnbros said in [CMR] Jeweled Lotus:

I get that people like Onslaught Fetch lands, but that was not even the first printing of the mechanic. Mirage block had fetch lands. I don't recall Mirage fetches being played really at all. So, while the power level was obviously raised on the Onslaught fetches, they weren't some original or novel concept that was added to the game. Fetches by themselves, are pretty much inferior to dual lands since they damage you and without the existence of duals could only pick 1 color type. So they are not independently powerful, or original.

They printed a card that was not as good and then later they printed a much stronger version witch now reigns supreme in basically every format. This is a sentence frame that could be used to define power creep, and the they dont power creep lands guy is saying it about lands. This is highly confusing.

You can claim they should power creep lands more I disagree, but I care about other formats and I am not ready to argue doing so would be bad for vintage, just for literally every other format except maybe pauper depending on rarity.

You can say they don't power creep nanland mana sources. This is true.

But no reasonable person can claim they don't power creep lands, unless the baseline for lands is bazaar and kind of workshop but academy exists so even claiming workshop has not been crept is tricky. I personally do not think these cards should be used as baselines any more than ancestral should be used as the baseline for blue spells but that is an opinion.

@vaughnbros said in [CMR] Jeweled Lotus:

In addition to impacting diversity over time, the lack of power creep for mana bases causes issues from a balancing perspective. Low and no mana cost cards will continue to dictate specific constructs within those decks. Every decent printing at 1 or less for Blue, 0 for Bazaar, and 4 or less for Workshops will instantly broken every time. Our restricted list has cards that aren't even playable in other formats because of this phenomenon.

Unlike the rest of the post this paragraph is actually really interesting and insightful and could form the basis for an argument that vintage would benefit from more broken lands.

@vaughnbros said in [CMR] Jeweled Lotus:

As for the topic at hand, a limited usage Lotus, does have some room to change the format measurably. This is limited usage lotus just like Eldrazi were limited use Ancient Tombs. These limited usage mana accelerators are fair because they restrict your card pool significantly. No one is out here campaigning for Eldrazi lands to get hit with a restriction because of the drawback on the cards. In similar fashion, a limited use Lotus may also be fair.

I don't think LED should actually be restricted. I think it was great design. Earlier in the game it caused issues due to the lack of cards to interact on turn 0. We have numerous such effects now, and I think its fairly safe to come off the list. I'm not sure it even fits into a single decklist at this point without major revision.

So in terms of printings more LEDs, more Lotus Petals, more Moxen, better Duals. These would all be great for the game, and bring back to fun of playing some new cards instead of automatically putting the same 20 or so mana sources into every deck.

The issue with this argument is not these cards would be bad for vintage, they if done well could be a tremendous boon for the format it's they would tear every other format they passed through to pieces on the way to us. In conclusion vaughnbros wants vintage horizons and honestly if WOTC got it's shit together a bit more on the play design side that would probably be really cool.

@botvinik

Hell yes to Vintage Horizons. Give us a cycle of Lotuses. One for each color. Some 1/2 Mana artifact accelerators that are better than Grim Monolith. Go wild.

Give us some non-mana lands back too. Maybe like a red Bazaar of Baghdad, where you discard 3 first and then draw 1.

You can play unrestricted, and restricted versions of the format. Unrestricted allows 4 copies of everything. Restricted allows only 1 copy of anything. Simple.

@vaughnbros said in [CMR] Jeweled Lotus:

Give us a cycle of Lotuses. One for each color. Some 1/2 Mana artifact accelerators that are better than Grim Monolith. Go wild.

One of the primary forces that will ruin a format is the redundancy of broken effects. There come a point with like-effects where if you have too many of them then you are able to start constructing the fabled 40 bolts 20 lotus builds. Think about all the things WOTC has done to control redundancy of broken effects since the dawn of the game.

4 of card limit
Going to 60 card decks from 40
Restricted List
Banned List
Creating new formats when one got warped or our of their wheelhouse

There comes a point where the protections the format has are no longer effective. You print a bunch of broken moxen, they all go onto the restricted list. Print another broken mox every few years, restrict it. You start traveling towards a cliff edge where regardless of the restricted list you basically have enough of the effect that fits the deck you want to play where you are not even play all the copies of that effect and the restricted list lost its reason to be.

Now this is obviously not a problem with some effects. I don't care if a deck can have 12 whispers of the muse or goblin piker, I do care when they start getting +2 mox options. I mean here are a list of things that have already been proven to be problematic to the longevity of the format.

New Moxen on a long enough time scale
Any relevant free spells
Cards with highish Dredge numbers since they beget other dredge things
1 for 3 draw cards
Tutors and things like DDT that are close to it

You do not even have to surpass the power level of the broken cards for it to be a problem. Imperial seal is a strictly worse version of Vampiric and it is still restricted, and mystical tutor is also comparable. Brainstorm is for most metrics worse than ancestral. Merchant scroll is in many ways worse than DT. Think about what the format was before and after mental misstep, and how even with 1 copy the card has changed the dynamic of how blue decks play. Think about how much more it changed when force of negation became an option.

So in short, printing a card that is better than workshops, even if workshops was restricted, potentially makes the format worse or broken. Hell printing a workshops that tapped for 2, a strictly inferior card, would STILL be better than ancient tomb in that deck and provide a huge power spike. None of these options short of banning fixes the pricetag problem either because at the point where you have enough better cards than the ones on the reserve list so that you are compelled not to use the reserve list cards, the format is probably broken beyond any hope of repair because everyone is playing cards of such a jacked up power level that the game is not fun and has too much variance.

@protoaddict

What kills a format is when it no longer becomes fun. Sitting on MTGO waiting 10+ minutes for a match is not fun.

@vaughnbros said in [CMR] Jeweled Lotus:

What kills a format is when it no longer becomes fun. Sitting on MTGO waiting 10+ minutes for a match is not fun.

Vintage was always a niche product within a niche product. The more accessible formats will always be more popular and no amount of printing lotuses into vintage will ever change that.

@protoaddict

Accessibility is not the issue online. The decks aren’t that expensive online. Vintage isn’t fun enough, and it doesn’t sell enough product. Vintage Horizons solves both problems.

@vaughnbros said in [CMR] Jeweled Lotus:

@protoaddict

Accessibility is not the issue online. The decks aren’t that expensive online. Vintage isn’t fun enough, and it doesn’t sell enough product. Vintage Horizons solves both problems.

This is a very limited view scarcity still matters online a deck for vintage on MTGO is around 300$ witch is not a small price tag and printing more must haves is unlikely to abate that. If the set were in paper vintage would be unable to explode in popularity as a sanctioned format because RL. This set would not be able to fix all of the problems vintage has in paper and I am really not interested in having vintage be a different format online and in person. Now would a set like horizons be a shot in the arm of the format and possible help expand the appeal, if managed well yes but it is not a magic elixir that will solve all the format's issues.

Let's walk this back for a second because a vintage horizons set is a fever dream to begin with.

Wotc does not care about vintage. The cost benefit analysis for it is grim and of course they are not going to pour money into that when they can make things for the format that makes them money, commander, the reason we are discussing the lotus in the first place.

Now commander does care about the reserve list, but not in the same way that vintage does. Commander cares about the true duals, cradle, maybe workshops and bazaar though if they became a problem they would probably just ban them. Yea it is possible we see a mox though I think it would be in line with mox amber. What i dont think we will see are ancestral, timewalk, time vault.

None of these are a backdoor to fixing nor circumventing the reserve list. Printing a commander only Cradle does not make actual cradle less desirable. Printing 20 variants of cradle ruins rhe format long before it fixes it.

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